MozillaZine

Mozilla Now Supports All CSS1 Properties!

Thursday April 29th, 1999

David Baron, long on the scene as a champion of a proper CSS1 implementation and one of the most prolific bug-report contributors at Bugzilla has great news on CSS1 in Mozilla (and he'd be the one to know).

"The new layout engine now supports all CSS1 properties. Troy Chevalier implemented the last property, background-attachment, earlier this week. Some properties are still buggy, and one selector (the visited pseudo-class) isn't yet implemented. However, this is probably the most complete implementation of CSS1 so far, and the bug list is consistently getting shorter."


#1 Re:Mozilla Now Supports All CSS1 Propeties!

by indeyets

Thursday April 29th, 1999 2:35 PM

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So.... Let's hope M5 will be stable enough to test CSS-compliance :)

#2 Re:Mozilla Now Supports All CSS1 Propeties!

by A happy person.

Thursday April 29th, 1999 2:38 PM

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Way to go!

#3 Re:Mozilla Now Supports All CSS1 Propeties!

by StayPuft

Thursday April 29th, 1999 3:36 PM

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WAHOOOOOO!!! Kick Ass. When's M5 going to be out?

#4 Re: This rocks

by Brad Neuberg <bkn3@columbia.edu>

Thursday April 29th, 1999 3:42 PM

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Congrats, guys. Good work.

#5 Re:Mozilla Now Supports All CSS1 Propeties!

by Henrik <Lynggaard@netscape.net>

Thursday April 29th, 1999 3:50 PM

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Contrats to all the coders.

cheers from denmark henrik

#6 Re:Mozilla Now Supports All CSS1 Propeties!

by Kovu <Kovu401@netscape.net>

Thursday April 29th, 1999 6:19 PM

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You guys are my heroes! Rock on!

#7 Re:Mozilla Now Supports All CSS1 Propeties!

by Brian Anderson <rakuda@inlink.com>

Thursday April 29th, 1999 7:28 PM

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So, when will all of this be more than a bunch of whoops and whoohoos, and visible in a real world browser implementation? When can I have this support in my Netscape browser? It has been a long time coming.

#8 Re:Mozilla Now Supports All CSS1 Propeties!

by Kovu <Kovu401@netscape.net>

Thursday April 29th, 1999 8:02 PM

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like July 20th beta

#9 Re:Mozilla Now Supports All CSS1 Propeties!

by Daniel Hill <danielhill@mindless.com>

Thursday April 29th, 1999 8:48 PM

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Yes, this is very good. And about time too. CSS1 has been around for years. Any news on CSS2 support?

July 20th beta, you say? Yep, i reckon that's a good timeframe. Don't want to rush it now, do we??

#10 Re: Mozilla Now Supports All CSS1 Propeties!

by arielb

Thursday April 29th, 1999 10:22 PM

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well we're getting good css2 I heard. (posting from the April 28 build)

#11 CSS2

by jawbone <jlp@ematic.com>

Thursday April 29th, 1999 10:28 PM

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I think the target is around 80% of CSS2. But I could quite possibly be wrong.

#12 This kicks ass!

by -=Yusuf=- <ssym@hippo.ru.ac.za>

Thursday April 29th, 1999 11:11 PM

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Wow! A *FULL* CSS1 implementation, gee, I wonder whose browser developers will code for now .... *scratches head in mock thought...* ..... Mozilla, anyone? =)

To all the coders: EXCELLENT WORK GUYS! Keep the nightly-builds coming!

#13 Re:Mozilla Now Supports All CSS1 Propeties!

by simeon

Thursday April 29th, 1999 11:29 PM

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All CSS2 import methods, and all CSS2 table styles are supported. Plus other goodies, such as paged media. It won't even make sense for gecko to support 100% of CSS2, because of things like aural style sheets (speech), and other non-visual presentation. Though it'd be nice to have speech synthesis integrated w/ the browser ;)

#14 Revenge of Mozilla has been updated.

by Bruce <jensenba@silverlink.net>

Friday April 30th, 1999 12:10 AM

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Revenge of Mozilla has been updated.

<http://www.silverlink.net/~jensenba/>

Thanks for all the suggestions on ROM... I think it is *finally* complete.

Cheers,

-Bruce

#15 Re: Mozilla Now Supports All CSS1 Propeties!

by arielb

Friday April 30th, 1999 12:42 AM

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yeah I don't know why css2 has aural stylesheets. It makes it difficult for browsers to achieve 100% compliance with the spec which is not a good idea IMHO. Anyway, this is good news (posting from jazilla hehe)

#16 Re: Mozilla Now Supports All CSS1 Propeties!

by arielb

Friday April 30th, 1999 12:42 AM

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yeah I don't know why css2 has aural stylesheets. It makes it difficult for browsers to achieve 100% compliance with the spec which is not a good idea IMHO. Anyway, this is good news (posting from jazilla hehe)

#17 Re:Mozilla Now Supports All CSS1 Propeties!

by Anthony Clark <anthony.clark@adv.sonybpe.com>

Friday April 30th, 1999 12:56 AM

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What about the box model? I have loads of trouble convincing colleagues that mozilla will kick butt when it doesn't display box models that IE5 has no trouble with. Also, when will the LINK REL importing of stylesheets work (I'm using m4)?

Please don't think I'm being negative; I think that the mozilla project has produced some great code.

Anthony

#18 Re: Mozilla Now Supports All CSS1 Propeties!

by Antti Näyhä <Antti.Nayha@oulu.fi>

Friday April 30th, 1999 1:20 AM

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arielb: A browser does *not* need to implement all CSS2 properties to be CSS2 conformant - just those properties which apply to the appropriate media type. That is "screen" and "print" for Mozilla, and maybe "handheld", "tv" and more in the future. :-)

See <http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-…/conform.html#conformance> for details.

#19 Question for Bruce.

by Scott <sdhester@concentric.net>

Friday April 30th, 1999 1:35 AM

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Does ROM work ok with 98lite 1.8????

TIA.

#20 Re:Mozilla Now Supports All CSS1 Propeties!

by menelik

Friday April 30th, 1999 1:48 AM

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This is great news IMHO. Specially right after the excellent article in Web Reference, two or 3 articles below this one.

Keep up the good work guys. We're at M5, getting there.

#21 IE 5 Question

by Thomas

Friday April 30th, 1999 3:53 AM

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Somebody from my firm told me that ie5 supports over 95% CSS1. But i think thats not true, can somebody tell me how much % of CSS1 IE really supports. thanks

#22 IE 5 Question

by Thomas

Friday April 30th, 1999 4:28 AM

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Somebody from my firm told me that ie5 supports over 95% CSS1. But i think thats not true, can somebody tell me how much % of CSS1 IE really supports. thanks

#23 Re: LINK/REL loading of stylesheets

by Dave Fiddes <D.J@fiddes.surfaid.org>

Friday April 30th, 1999 5:58 AM

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I am confused... Loading style sheeting by doing something like:

<LINK REL="stylesheet" HREF="style.css" TYPE="text/css">

has been working for ages. Is there something more complicated?

#24 Yeah... Now what about the other major features.

by Dan S.

Friday April 30th, 1999 8:17 AM

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It's great to hear that CSS1 support is almost done (just bug fixing now). But how are things going on HTML 4.0, is mozilla at 100%, what still needs work? Also how about javascript/ecma-262? How much remains there?

#25 Re:Mozilla Now Supports All CSS1 Properties!

by LoppEar

Friday April 30th, 1999 8:21 AM

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Rather than using the link tag, try @import in the stylesheet.

@import { url(style.css) }

(I think that's correct. Off the top of my head.)

Luke

#26 Re:Mozilla Now Supports All CSS1 Properties!

by Chris Knoll <knoll@eclipse.net>

Friday April 30th, 1999 8:34 AM

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Um, I don't want to be a dick (and I think all the developers rightly deserve alot of praise for their efforts towards making a compliant browser), but what is this sh*t about supporting all the properties when some of the property support is buggy?!? It wasn't that long ago that everyone was trash-talkin MS about claiming CSS compliance and how the phrase was spoken: "20% non-buggy implementation is better than 80% buggy implementation". I for one totally agree with that statement and you guys are foolling yourselves if you are going to say "Mozilla now supports all CSS1 properties!" if some of the properties are still buggy. I think the celebration is a bit early, and I'm sorry for being the dickhead that has to point this out.

-Chris

#27 Re:Mozilla Now Supports All CSS1 Properties!

by anson

Friday April 30th, 1999 8:34 AM

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"Wow! A *FULL* CSS1 implementation, gee, I wonder whose browser developers will code for now ...."

gee buddy, i think you're missing the point. developers should be able to code for the *spec* not individual [superior or not] browsers.

it just so happens that mozilla is making that possible.

#28 Status Updates

by Kvin Idzi

Friday April 30th, 1999 8:51 AM

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Is there a way we can have %'s for completion or compliance for CSS1, CSS2, HTML 4.0, ecma, etc... on the weekly status reports?

Great work guys!! Let us know when it is 100% working, as well as 100% supporting.

#29 Re:Mozilla Now Supports All CSS1 Properties!

by David Baron <dbaron@fas.harvard.edu>

Friday April 30th, 1999 8:57 AM

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Anthony Clark wrote, above:

What about the box model? I have loads of trouble convincing colleagues that mozilla will kick butt when it doesn't display box models that IE5 has no trouble with. Also, when will the LINK REL importing of stylesheets work (I'm using m4)?

Mozilla's box model is probably correct, and IE's rendering is incorrect. Could you give some examples?

Again, with the importing, Mozilla is almost definitely correct. Linked stylesheets have worked reliably since last September. If they don't work for you, then something is wrong with what you are doing - you're probably relying on some IE bug. See: <http://www.bath.ac.uk/~py8ieh/internet/importtest/>

#30 Re:Mozilla Now Supports All CSS1 Properties!

by David Baron <dbaron@fas.harvard.edu>

Friday April 30th, 1999 10:13 AM

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In response to Chris Knoll, I agree that buggy implementation is worse than not implementing it at all. However,

1) Mozilla is currently not yet in beta. At this stage it can have bugs. We have reason to believe that these bugs will be fixed.

2) I think it has far fewer CSS bugs than IE5, a released browser, already.

In response to the question about what % of CSS1 is implemented in IE5. Most things are implemented: only the selectors :first-letter and :first-line and the properties white-space, word-spacing, and the value blink for text decoration are not implemented. However, there are huge bugs in many areas. In particular:

* error handling. MSIE accepts almost anything, leading authors to think that their CSS is correct and other browsers are wrong. The rules for error handling in the CSS spec are *very* specific, and MSIE violates a number of them.

* the box model. MSIE interprets width and height incorrectly.

See <http://www.webstandards.org/css/winie/> for more information on MSIE's CSS support.

#31 Re:Mozilla Now Supports All CSS1 Properties!

by Chris Knoll <knoll@eclipse.net>

Friday April 30th, 1999 11:59 AM

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David, I'm not disagreing with you at all. I'm just voicing concerns that the title of the article (Mozilla supports all CSS1 properties) is false if they are saying that some of these properties aren't implementd (how do you have support without implementation?!?) Anyways, I gues it wasn't my place to say anything about it.

-Chris

#32 Re:LINK/REL loading of stylesheets

by StayPuft <keith@keithdevens.com>

Friday April 30th, 1999 12:32 PM

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"I am confused... Loading style sheeting by doing something like: <LINK REL="stylesheet" HREF="style.css" TYPE="text/css">

has been working for ages. Is there something more complicated?"

It seems to work fine for one linked stylesheet, but try putting two or three of them together on the same page. It behaves strangely.

#33 More than one linked stylesheet

by mozineAdmin

Friday April 30th, 1999 12:46 PM

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If I recall, the spec says second and third linked stylesheets become alternates (please someone, clarify if I'm wrong). Check in the menubar of viewer.exe for a menu item that allows you to choose alternate stylesheets.

#34 Re:More than one linked stylesheet

by David Baron <dbaron@fas.harvard.edu>

Friday April 30th, 1999 2:16 PM

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The HTML 4.0 spec (see <http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-…resent/styles.html#h-14.3> ) says that there are three types of external stylesheets:

1) persistent stylesheets. These are stylesheets specified without a title attribute. You can have as many of these as you want.

2) preferred stylesheets. These are stylesheets linked with rel="stylesheet" that *do* have a title attribute. Each distinct title is a separate alternate.

3) alternate stylesheets. Same as preferred, except linked with rel="alternate stylesheet"

However, there can only be one set (i.e., all having the same title) of preferred or alternate stylesheets selected at once. The spec gives rules for determining which one of the stylesheets given as preferred is actually the selected one (and thus all the others become alternate). The rules are described here: <http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-…sent/styles.html#h-14.3.2>

Therefore, if you specify linked stylesheets with *different* title attributes (note that some stylesheet links should not have a title attribute), then only the first one is used.

#35 Re:Mozilla Now Supports All CSS1 Properties!

by Martin Willemoes Hansen

Friday April 30th, 1999 3:41 PM

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Super!!! Keep up the good work!! Another happy dane here :)

#36 Micro-crap!

by jedbro

Friday April 30th, 1999 3:53 PM

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Free beer to these ROCK'N Coders! (yeah, don't we all wish).

Great work you guys. This is already history changing news! It's awesome to see so much effort on to this!

VIVA MOZILLA!!!

M$ better be working there butt off too if they think they can stay on top with this.

#37 Re:Mozilla Now Supports All CSS1 Properties!

by CPT

Friday April 30th, 1999 4:13 PM

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Bummer about the visited pseudo-class selector, but man, this is sweet.

You know, I've been bummed this last year about how the web isn't the way it used to be, how everything is being bought out and blandified by large corps. Software that's supposed to be powerful ends up being overhyped, non-conforming, buggy, and sometimes just plain stupid. I'm glad someone is taking the time to do things the hard way and make a good product.

Congrats to the mozilla team(s) and thanks for making this an exciting time!

#38 Apply sheets to forms?

by Moonshiner

Friday April 30th, 1999 5:28 PM

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Does Mozilla support applying stylesheets to forms? Such as changing the color of the button and border and stuff like that for the buttons? Last time I checked, and it's been awhile, this didnt' work.

#39 Re:Mozilla Now Supports All CSS1 Properties!

by blov.

Friday April 30th, 1999 8:41 PM

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Moonshiner, Mozilla can apply certain styles to forms, although its support for this feature is not complete yet. To test it out on a nightly build, just select Style: Widget Rendering Mode Pref: Gfx. To see an example, load text_gfx.html in the samples directory.

#40 Re: LINK/REL loading of stylesheets

by Anthony Clark <anthony.clark@adv.sonybpe.com>

Saturday May 1st, 1999 4:41 AM

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Hi,

Sorry for not replying earlier, but I'm in england, so there's a bit of a time difference.

I have put some pages up at <http://members.tripod.com/Anthony_Clark/> that demonstrate what I'm blathering about. (apologies for those pop-up windows - if anyone knows of a better free homepage hoster, then let me know!)

I think the problem may stem from nested boxes, not from stylesheets and I apologize if I've misled people.

Anyway, please email me and let me know what you found.

Anthony Clark (who is at work, on a saturday morning to try and clarify what I meant!) :D

#41 Re:Mozilla Now Supports All CSS1 Properties!

by erik

Saturday May 1st, 1999 6:30 AM

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The GXF input test is cool. This will bring real control to the designer.

There are still some bugs here. Borders are ignored on radio buttons. Padding isn't working. Hover/active pseudo classes are ignored.

About the GFX lib. It really needs to do a better job antialiasing those round boxes/circles (try -moz-border-radius for more samples)

#42 Re:Mozilla Now Supports All CSS1 Properties!

by FrodoB

Saturday May 1st, 1999 9:53 AM

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Not yet supporting hover and active (and visited, for that matter) is not really a bug.... It's more a matter of something that didn't take first priority (things have to work right in other areas before that area can be worked with). Be patient. It'll come. :)

#43 Re:Mozilla Now Supports All CSS1 Properties!

by blov.

Saturday May 1st, 1999 12:53 PM

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Actually hover and active are supported, at least to some extent. For some reason the browser sometimes doesn't recognize or act on them though, but certain examples do work.

#44 Re:Mozilla Now Supports All CSS1 Properties!

by David Baron <dbaron@fas.harvard.edu>

Saturday May 1st, 1999 2:34 PM

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I sent a much more detailed response to Anthony Clark, but the biggest problems with his test were:

* Using HTML comments inside CSS, which caused large chunks of the stylesheet to (correctly) be ignored by Mozilla

* Putting block level elements inside of inline level elements, and then trying to apply to those inline elements widths (width doesn't apply to inline elements) and backgrounds (which should only cover the text, not a box).

MSIE does "recover" from all these errors. However, error handling is not a service to authors because:

* error recovery as MSIE does is not defined by any spec and so will be different between browsers

* therefore, in future versions or in other browsers, what the author thinks is fine won't actually work, because it's wrong.

* MSIE will try to recover from "errors" that are actually features of future versions of CSS, causing *massive* errors.

Furthermore, the CSS spec does define very clearly how to handle errors (HTML does not, but XML does). MSIE's "error recovery" blatantly violates these rules.

#45 Re:Mozilla Now Supports All CSS1 Properties!

by pcm

Sunday May 2nd, 1999 1:50 AM

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The CSS1 news is great, but Im am still going to be dragged to Netscape's portal every time I want to read e-mail?

#46 Re:Mozilla Now Supports All CSS1 Properties!

by pcm

Sunday May 2nd, 1999 1:50 AM

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The CSS1 news is great, but Im am still going to be dragged to Netscape's portal every time I want to read e-mail?

#47 Re:Mozilla Now Supports All CSS1 Properties!

by Tekhir

Sunday May 2nd, 1999 2:30 PM

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pcm, Are you talking about the message content section in Messanger? If so there is a litte line you can add to your prefs.js file which will remove it. I'll have to find it on my other dead computer when it gets fix. Maybe someone else knows the line. It was feaured on Lockergnome a while bck if you care to search a lot.

#48 Re:Mozilla Now Supports All CSS1 Properties!

by jawbone <jlp@ematic.com>

Sunday May 2nd, 1999 3:15 PM

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pcm: Add this to your prefs.js file:

user_pref("mailnews.start_page.enabled", false);

#49 Re:Mozilla Now Supports All CSS1 Properties!

by Robert Crooks <rcrooks@allaire.com>

Sunday May 2nd, 1999 8:21 PM

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This is great news. I'm unable to get padding properties to work in the latest version I have, though. Am I missing something?

#50 Re:Mozilla Now Supports All CSS1 Properties!

by pcm

Monday May 3rd, 1999 7:16 AM

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Thats what I was talking about. Thanks for the tip.

#51 Re:Mozilla Now Supports All CSS1 Properties!

by firebird <firebird@disinfo.net>

Tuesday May 4th, 1999 6:11 AM

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Way to go, but that's only a start. To to discourage the Mozilla heroes, but where's CSS2? How about DOM 1.0, or 2.0? Good start nonetheless.

#52 Re: Mozilla Now Supports All CSS1 Properties!

by Tom Davidson <tomdavidson@earthlink.net>

Tuesday May 4th, 1999 9:30 AM

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Great job. So where's a beta? I know it's hard, guys, but you're getting scooped by the competition.

#53 Re:Mozilla Now Supports All CSS1 Properties!

by David Baron <dbaron@fas.harvard.edu>

Tuesday May 4th, 1999 10:01 AM

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If padding doesn't work for you, then you're missing something. It's worked for ages. It's probably some form of invalid CSS that MSIE accepts but shouldn't.

Also, large parts of CSS2 are already supported. In fact, I think everything is supported (although there are some bugs) except

* full support for dynamic pseudo-classes on non-link elements (it's unclear what full support is)

* rtl directionality (only in tables so far)

(I'm not sure about overflow, clip and z-index. I know there are some overflow bugs.)

* markers, counters, and numbering

* paged media stuff (though I think this may be expected soon, I'm not sure)

* downloadable font selection

* table model is still very buggy

* text-shadow, outline, font-stretch properties

* user colors or user fonts - one of them is supported and the other not, but I forget which is which

I've probably missed some stuff here, but at least a few of these will probably go in sometime soon. However, there are large pieces that are new in CSS2 that are supported, like selectors (IE doesn't support any new selectors except :hover), the table model (IE has only very basic support), and positioning (supported much better than IE).

My experience with the DOM is that DOM level 1 is supported better than IE, and many parts of DOM Level 2 are already going in.

#54 Re:Mozilla Now Supports All CSS1 Properties!

by That one guy over there

Saturday May 8th, 1999 7:31 PM

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Dammit! I'm gonna cry!

I love you guys!