Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
Tuesday April 27th, 1999
Webreference.com has a new article online, "Internet Explorer 5.0: With Style, Finally?", which details the shortcomings of IE5. If you're not interested in reading about IE5, skip ahead to page 7 of the article, which gives an approving nod to Mozilla. Interesting article, although I wish the author had elaborated on his allusion to bugs in the CSS parser of IE5.
#1 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
by Alfonzo <email@example.com>
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 7:55 AM
My turn to explain some of the shortcomings of Mozilla: It doesn't even work!!!
Do you guys really think that this last release of IE5 is it from Microsoft? That they will cease to update the rendering engine???
When is the final Mozilla due out? Early next year?
I really hope you clowns can up with something other than loads of incessant hype that I've been reading for the past YEAR!!!!!!!!!
#2 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 8:26 AM
go away troll
#3 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 8:38 AM
Alfonzo, Mozilla does work and quite well. I use it all the time when working with all the neato standards out there. Its still an alpha though so it missing a few things and the nightly builds aren't all that stable, but the milestone builds kick butt.
The Mozilla engine will basically be done in the middle of thise year and thats when netscapes releases their first beta. Communicator 5.0 is expected to be out before the end of the year.
#4 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 8:44 AM
well i guess the good news is that mozillazine is finally attractivng a wider audience. ;-)
as for the article...pretty good, but too bad the mozilla section couldn't have been it's own article. i wonder how many people will read through six pages of ie in order to get to it.
#5 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 10:23 AM
I, personally hate M$. BUT how can I swim against the stream? It's obvious that their browser was a piece of sh-- 2 years ago but now IE5 is simply better (argh).
I have Mozilla's latest milestone and KNOW that THIS is the browser I'll be designinig for in 6 months.
But until then millions of users will be converted! And M$ will do anything to keep those users.
And then - goodbye standards... Again.
#6 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 10:58 AM
Alfonzo, MS has a bit of work to do just to catch up with Opera. Mozilla already has solid css1 and very good css2. Now if MS indeed catches up-that's great! That's what we want from standards. But I doubt it because then MS won't have control over the web
#7 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 11:39 AM
horse@%#$. Millions of users will be converted from IE4 maybe, but that's not converting. And who gives a damn how many switch. You think they won't switch back when NS 5.0 comes out with a tiny footprint, customizable UIs, and support for all sorts of cool nifty new languages like, oh, CSS1 and HTML4? I personally don't give a damn how long it takes Mozilla to come out in good form. I'm willing to wait for a better product and for those who aren't, that's not my problem.
#8 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 11:43 AM
P.S. I think M5 should be closing this week and going into debugging mode, right? I'm dying to sink my teeth into M5.
#9 Mozilla will need more to suplant IE...
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 12:27 PM
I think IE will eventually support all of the standards...
What if it did right now? I don't think there would be much impact because of the millions upon millions of Netscape 3.X/4.X and IE 3.X/4.X users out there.
Do you think that everyone is just going to jump ship and start writing code based solely on standards that the majority of users out there won't even be able to render properly?
I really do think you guys overhype the reality of standards. Sure, they help... but what happens after a standard is extended or updated? The existing installed base of 'standards' compliant browsers don't rise up out of the primordial ooze and immediatley support these new additions!
Mozilla really better come up with innovative ideas if it's going to beat IE at this stage of the game... mere standards compliance and a small footprint ain't going to cut it. (Excuse the slang) :)
At least not in the users eyes... and let's face it... this is the group that will determine any given browsers success or failure.
#10 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 12:51 PM
If you really think IE 5 will support all the standards then you must be smoking crack. It doesn't support css 1 (after all this time and MS has billions of bucks) and by the way they're handling xsl,they won't support it either when it's finally finished
#11 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 1:02 PM
I think if Mozilla 5.0 comes to market then, yes, IE will support the standards.
They're just playing a waiting game right now.
You must be smoking crack if you think they are that stupid.
#12 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 1:08 PM
Doesn't MS own the patent for CSS, yet they haven't gotten it right. And namespaces were created by them fore the W3C but it handles them wrong. I just don't see how you can make the standard yet implement it poorly.
Standards complience alone with make people switch. Users always want the best thing and whena product says it has full CSS1, HTL 4.0, XML, and blah ... People are going to say it has all of that, I must have it even if I don't use it. MMX was like that everyone wanted it even though hardly anyone uses it.
#13 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 1:30 PM
IE will support standards after they take Mozilla's finished source code and claim responsibility for it.
#14 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 1:45 PM
xgray: There is a Mozilla article... at <http://www.webreference.com/html/gecko/>
#15 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 1:56 PM
I guess you guy's aren't getting what I'm saying.
We're at kind of an impasse' right now... it's not as simple as you think it is.
If there were a 100% standards compliant browser right now... it would have very little effect in how I or any other developer would author web sites.
E-Commerce sites, etc... try to reach the largest pool of users out there... only one standards compliant browser would not be enough to sway developers to ditch the millions of other users out there.
The transition to a 100% standards world will be a VERY SLOW transition over a period of YEARS. No one browser is going to change all that.
I personally think MS is waiting to see how it goes with Mozilla before letting itself get into a 'tail wagging the dog' situation.
There's no doubt in my mind that MS has a strategy for what's going on here... they retain some of the greatest programming talent in the world and can basically code whatever the hell they want to.
#16 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
by Forehead <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 2:44 PM
Alfonzo, you are not getting what you are saying, let alone, what the rest of us are saying.
"If there were a 100% standards compliant browser right now... it would have very little effect in how I or any other developer would author web sites."
Yes, it would have a dramtic effect on how people designed web sites. Not now, but in the near future. The sooner ALL major browsers support HTML 4/CSS 1 & 2/XML/XSL FULLY, the sooner developers will be able to take advantage of these features. If M$ waits two years to get out a compliant browser, then there are two years, PLUS a transition period before authors can safely use "new" features. If M$ had full HTML 4/etc NOW, we would not have to wait those extra two years. REDMOND IS HOLDING US BACK, NOT MOZILLA. The times saved by developers who don't have to hack together web sites will be much greater than waiting a few extra months for a compliant browser.
Since M$ will probably wait at least another year before the next version of IE (it looks like IE6 may beat Win2k ;), they have set the whole world back another year. We'll only be waiting for Communicator a few more months.
That is why we're so willing to be patient. We all know that Mozillia will (hopefully) be a trend setter. If we can *finally* get a compliant browser, it raises the bar for all the competitors. That is what drives innovation in the software industry. Always raise the bar another knotch.
#17 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 2:48 PM
Alfonzo,you don't understand. The way MSis heading rightnowis that it will be very hard to go to 100% standards in their release 5.x timeframe. 1) they'd have todrop all their new non-standard stuff 2) they'd have to drop all the MS sites out there 3) the last thing they want todo is use mozilla code and abide by the MPL (letalone the embarassment that MS just can't do the job) 4) the way they're going with XSL means they won't even get standards right in the future SoMS can't get us there. However, a good strategy is to encourage development of many commercial mozilla based browsers such as Netscape 5 (of course!) AOL 5 (which will dump rainmaker) ICQ, Neoplanet...and let's see how many other people we can get to make browsers out of mozilla
#18 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 2:50 PM
I agree with most of what you said... how's that different from what I just said?
#19 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 2:53 PM
I was addressing Forehead...
#20 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 2:53 PM
I was addressing Forehead...
#21 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 3:00 PM
MS wouldn't have to drop any non-standard features to comply with the standards. As long as they adhered to the standards they can include their own extensions... and intranets that standardize on IE can implement those extensions to their hearts content.
This is all something that is going to take a long time... regardless of who does what.
Like I said before, if IE 5 was 100% standards compliant it would mean nothing right now... pure and simple.
Do you have any idea the installed base of NS 3/4 and IE 3/4 users all over the world?
This whole 'standards' ideal is going to take a lot of time and hard work.
#22 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 3:12 PM
The thing is, MS's "fantastic" programmers seem to be working against standards not for them. The problem you have with MS is good programers and evil, selfish, stupid leadership. Do you think any software company in their right mind would not be porting Office to Linux right now if it wasn't for MSs obvious bias for Windows? Do you think IE would come out with all these fragmentary, proprietary extension crap if MS weren't bent on making Internet browsing a MS only technology, all while their intelligent programmers are helping devise intelligent standards for the W3C that MS STUPID, IDIOT leaders at the same time refuse to let them implement? Once the government is through with MS, maybe, just maybe, they'll be able to do something worth a damn again.
#23 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 3:42 PM
No, I'm not talking about new non-standard features. I'm talking about non-standard alternatives to what we already have in the standards. Doing stuff differently just to be different. I agree the whole standard thing will take alot of work. But thanks to mozilla it will come sooner rather than later. MS can help too but it means they will have to drop their ego and start over
#24 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 3:42 PM
Of course they have a bias for Windows!!!
It's their own god damned operating system!
#25 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 3:45 PM
no shit dimwit, and it taints EVERY GOD DAMNED THING THEY DO
#26 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 3:46 PM
My last post was to Kovu...
Damn... the second time this has happened! :)
#27 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 3:50 PM
Don't tell me, Kovu... you are a Linux user.
What version of emacs are you running?
#28 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 3:53 PM
I'm not trying to be hostile here, but look. MS makes enough excuses for themselves. That includes sub-standard ass IE. They promised it would be compliant, and they lied.
I'm MS appreciates your help. I've heavily researched the trial evidence, and they have lied upon lied upon lied. I may actually just stop posting here, because I always get in these knock-down drag out arguments with MS worshippers and I'm sick of it. They're evil, and I hope the government breaks them into different companies, so that each group can concentrate on good software instead of making sure Windows is the only OS anyone ever uses EVER.
#29 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 3:58 PM
actually I run Win98--because I got it for $5 through IU when I was still a student. It's worth that price anyway. But I hate that I can't properly uninstall my IE4 just because MS wanted to look good in court. It's dogshit. A browser is an application and can be corrupted, and should be able to be deleted and reinstalled like any other application. Instead I had to d/l IE5 to install over it, because at least IE5 is not "part of the OS"
#30 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 4:15 PM
No sweat man... I know M$ is full of shit... and I'm no MS lover.
But I'm no MS hater either... the behavior that they have engaged in is takes place every day in other industries as well. I'm sure as we speak Frito-Lay is concocting some scheme to undermine Nabisco! ;-)
There is no perfect system... and there never will be... as long as humans are running it.
Billy pisses me off, too. I think the browser/OS integration is nothing but a crock for the most part.
I'm just as anxious as the next guy to run Mozilla... I was just trying to shed some light on the realities of standards... the time, dedication, and work it will take to fully bear it's fruit.
#31 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
by Erik Arvidsson <email@example.com>
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 4:16 PM
I think a lot of people are putting to much weight on standards. One of the big reason for MS creating proprietary features is that there are no sufficient standards available.
A good example is the DOM issue. The W3C DOM level 1 and 2 (in it's current state) are not sufficient to do any real web applications. The DOM for IE4 is more powerful than both of these combined.
This does NOT justify why the didn't fix all those CSS and HTML4 bugs that has been known since early beta stages of IE3/4.
I'm really looking forward to a future where every thing I code works in all browsers but that ain't going to happen in another 5 years. One of the reason for this is that it takes time for a feature to become standard and it takes time for the feature to evolve.
What is the general solution when there is no standard for a must have feature? Add a proprietary one or get an unusable product?
#32 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 4:32 PM
If there are no sufficient standards available, why does MS waste all that time on the W3C council making new ones (and then breaking them just as quickly)?
Here's a solution, support existing standards before you try to make (and break) existing ones.
#33 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 4:51 PM
Just a quick note...
Please try to keep it civil. You can oppose someone's opinions all you want, but please don't "attack" them, and don't engage in personal attacks. So, for example, don't call someone's ideas idiotic, or call that person a dimwit. You can say that their ideas have no merit, but please take the effort to explain.
All in all I'm very happy with how civil our forums have been, and I hope everyone can appreciate that our forums have a decidedly better atmosphere than most others on the web. Please keep up the contributions.
#34 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 6:27 PM
You're right, of course. Sorry Alfonzo (head hung, feet shuffling). You could have just said cool it Kovu. I apologize for my hostility.
I actually used to think as you do, I must admit, until I researched the matter of MS and IE and all the brutally damning trial evidence. It's why, as I said before, I may not post here much any more, at least not on the topic of IE or MS. It always turns into these knock down drag out arguments and I don't have the energy for it, and I hate to have to apologize every other day.
#35 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 7:16 PM
No sweat Kovu... I took the dimwit statement light heartedly.
I suppose I had it coming... :)
#36 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
by Bruce (a.k.a Alfonzo)
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 7:31 PM
By the way Kovu(James)... I checked your profile and peeked at your homepage... very nice... especially the Netscape themes!
As it is... I live only about 30 miles from you across the sound in Port Orchard!
#37 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 7:36 PM
People seem to forget that the Mozilla ActiveX control can make IE standards complient, that is if people allow it.
kovu, try finding 98lite, its and install program for Win98 it allows you not to install a bunch of crap, be careful though somethings use that crap.
#38 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 7:55 PM
Thanks "Alfonzo" (LOL). Check back, I'm working on that site now and putting up some graphics. Check out my AmigaSoft site, if you're in for some neat graphics and light reading! <http://home.att.net/~Amiga401/amigasoft1024.htm>
You can imagine how hard it is for me to loathe MS when they are such a good thing for Seattle. But they've earned it, and I think they'll be better once the gov't is done with them. Look at AT&T now, they're doing VERY well, only this time it's not at the expense of competition.
And thanks Tekhir, I will definitely check that Win98 lite out. You are inspiring actually, as you can interject the politest things into the most volatile arguments. I'll try to follow suit.
kovu, it's here <http://www.98lite.net/>
#40 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
by Bruce (a.k.a. Alfonzo) <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 9:07 PM
I just happen to be the forum moderator at 98Lite.net... be sure to check out my site for Revenge of Mozilla: It picks up where 98Lite left off and *totally* eradicates IE from Windows98!! hehe!
#41 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 10:05 PM
Thanks arielb, that's righteous. I can finally rid myself of the IE4 albatross!
Jeez, Bruce, and I called you a MS Worshipper! Here, check out the revised Netscape site (different link) <http://home.att.net/~Amiga401/ns/netscape.htm> I'll redo the title at least, but I think it's pretty diggity now, though I'll improve the title eventually.
#42 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 10:08 PM
Warning! The above link is graphics intensive! That is the whole purpose of this site!
#43 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
by Bruce <email@example.com>
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 10:17 PM
Yeah... good job on the graphics!
Would make one hell of a nice desktop theme...
You wouldn't by chance have any Netscape-oriented desktop themes???
#44 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 10:31 PM
No, I am not sure yet how to go about making a theme, but what you see on that site is me working for the content to one. Anyone who can clue me in on how to put a theme together, or where to go to find out, would hasten my theming along!
P.S. You guys can feel free to e-mail me. I think we're hogging up this thread!
#45 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
Tuesday April 27th, 1999 11:07 PM
I found how to make themes, <http://windows.miningco.c…brary/weekly/aa101298.htm> so I will start right away! I don't know that I'll be able to come up with sounds though, and the I am going to have to work on icons and stuff, but I'll get a good Netscape looking theme going on, anyway. E-mail me if you want to be notified (just click on my name up there!). It might take a little while, but I'll try to beat M6 anyhow!
#46 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
Wednesday April 28th, 1999 11:05 AM
Don't know if you are doing this yet but I suggest the when the NG Layout Engine is finished the situation should be that the browser or the core engine should be able to update itself or check for a new update every month or so. The browser should download a new version of itself, install itself etc. That way we take the installation process from all those lame humans whose default browser is still IE2 or still think the version three browsers are good enough. It has to be quick, seamless and tranparent. Also the browser should timeout after a year of installation to force an upgrade.
#47 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
by Jim Lee
Wednesday April 28th, 1999 10:16 PM
dhickey - The problem with auto-updating the browser is that first, the user would want to what changes are being made to his computer. Also, if a loophole were found, malicious code could be downloaded and installed without his knowing.
Second, timing out a browser is not something you want to do to a program unless it were shareware (and you wanted the user to pay the registration fee), which it is not. The bottom line, again, is for the user to have control and choice over what is on his computer.
Remember, for every good-intentioned idea, there is also an inherently evil counterpart to it. But enough of the philosophical mumbo jumbo.
#48 Re:Webreference Article on IE5 and Mozilla
by Y_ C___ <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Wednesday April 28th, 1999 11:34 PM
ICQ and AIM will! A browser that can Chat with icq and aim ( and even Yahoo pager) user at the same time. I know Mozilla's not going to do it right now, but we all know not that's what they are going to do.
Face it kids, there's all mighty money/aol speaking. And the new skin of Mozzila 5 will also attract more convert than a full CSS2/XML/SML/DOM compliment even will! (through the NeoPlanet scheme, they can just make a browser that look and feel exactly like IE(shutter) with icq/AIM on it.)
Also, don't forget 1/3 of the IE population are count as AOL users, guess which rendering engine aol's going to use in AOl5? Before Microshift come up with new missile to bomb Netscape, let's see some Linux FUD promotion first.
Lux...., I.....ammm... your father.