Damn... I can certainly understand Mr. Zawinski's feelings of disappointment with mozilla.org, but I think we'd all have to admit to feeling a bit disappointed in him. If mozilla.org is truly greater than any one person, shouldn't the organization and it's members be able to overcome the potential oppression of AOL? I certainly never imagined that this project could be depressing; from the outside, at least, it has been exciting to watch (slow as it may be).

As an intense web developer, I have been drooling over the prospects of the upcoming browser, replete with standards support and stability. I must admit to being disappointed in the length of time this project is taking, but my patience is thick because I know that the end product will be over unbelievable value to the web... users and developers alike. I wish Jamie the best of luck in his future endeavors, and I remain confident that mozilla will eventually ship a browser that will again change the way the world views the web.

This is a shame, and obviously a major blow to Mozilla.org; I just hope the project is able to redouble it's efforts and get the July beta out on schedule. I've read JWZ's rants on "censorial ISPs", and I think I can sympathise with what he's saying -- but equally it makes me realise how important the Mozilla Organization is in preventing a situation where there is only a single dominant browser. If Mozilla fails, it will be a major blow to the image of free [open source] software, and a major advancement for those who seek to turn the Internet into a closed, proprietary and ultimately controllable medium.

What a man we've lost! I do understand Jamie's concerns with Mozilla/Netscape and AOL. I guess everyone has been a bit worried at some point during the last few months. What a mess.

I'd really like to hear that Jamie is keeping himself busy in the open source world, he's been a great personality shining though the walls of grey geeks!

Although I'm truly sad to see him go (from us, for now at least!), and wish him well in the future... I can't let this conspiracy theory go:

ESR is looking for someone to take over HIS job? How about it JWZ? I think you've got the personality AND the techno-savvy...

Hmmm... Ponderous. Truly ponderous.

JWZ, where to next?

I read his postmortem and share some of his concerns. #1 - no matter what the AOL spinmeisters said today on CNET, it still is largely a Netscape project, evidenced by people who reply on the mozilla newsgroups. Most of them have the netscape domain. Although it is great that the development is done in the open. Just by virtue of this, Mozilla is gonna be a great browser. Secondly, regarding AOL - his assertion that the choice of ISPs might dwindle to a handful of family friendly ISPs (read censorship), such as AOL and its inevitable clones. This is not such a far out outcome in todays world of mega mergers. This is one of the reasons I quit AOL, after being with them since almost the beginning.

I've had respect for jwz in his past statements, but to call the Mozilla project a "failure" at this stage of the game is wrong.

Mozilla has had missteps, but to call it a failure at this point is like saying that there's no need to put any more effort into it. I hope no one takes this to heart, because I don't want to be using IE the rest of my life (or Opera for that matter). If it came down to that, the Web would lose all its allure.

I will continue to believe in the Mozilla project because they have shown me no reason not to, and because the alternative is unthinkable.

Overall, I am disappointed in JWZ's attitude. I don't work for netscape, and I don't try to walk in his shoes and imagine what it's like (or has been like for the past year), but some of his comments about 'mistakes' the mozilla team made I feel weren't mistakes at all, and he just is being way too hard on himself. In his postmortem, he claims that scraping the old 4.5 code and having to re-write from scratch was a mistake costing the team 6-8 months of valuable time. Well, I think that's the BEST move that Mozilla made. I've been on my own software development projects, and the one thing I've learned is that there is a point when you say it's time to stop, and rebuild with a better design. Gecko is that better design! And when he said that he was dissapointed in the results that he had after an entire year, well refer to point one! The browser needed a rewrite, so that set you back 6 months, so in actuallity, you have the browser that supports SOOOO much more standards than other browsers (that have been reworked and reworked over the past years (IE and Opera)) and it was rewritten in a mere 6 months of development! And this is a bad thing? I hope that JWZ is just having a fit or something and will come around and possibly rejoin the team, because Mozilla really ISN'T THAT BAD and when you 'live the nightmare' you tend to get jaded and bitter. Maybe in a few months, he may feel like giving it another go. In any case, don't be so hard on the team, and don't be so hard on yourself.

-Chris

Oyy....I could take either side of the argument here...so here are both arguments breifly...

It is understandable that he has left, and I agree that large companies typically lose their innovative power, often because of annoying, Dilbert-esque circumstances. And without innovation, a company has to use the market to their advantage, something only possible for Microsoft.

And here is the other argument:

That is what is called as being a quitter. He didn't even see Mozilla through the big 5.0. He prematurely called it a failure. He should have at least waited for the final release of Mozilla and see what came of it. But he upt and left. All the more reason to make an even better browser.

Please tell me this is one huge April Fools' Joke...

As jwz himself has pointed out, mozilla!=netscape and mozilla!=aol.

It's also true that mozilla!=jwz.

I can't help but feel a bit betrayed. Let's see -- Netscape opened the source -- Netscape/Mozilla scrapped the old codebase and redid the whole damn thing practically from scratch, because web developers hollered, "We need standards support!" -- and we still have functional nightly builds and dev releases. The schedule's been set back, but that doesn't mean all is lost. Is Jamie saying now that Netscape should have released MozClassic as an end-user product, and perpetuated bugs and poor support for standards? I'm sorry, but if that's the case, I couldn't agree less.

My regret is that Jamie's apparently lost faith. My feeling is that he's lost his perspective. My hope is that this will spur the rest of us, whether we're coding, testing, reporting bugs, or just taking the builds for a spin and encouraging others to do, to do just the opposite.

As mozAdmin has noted, the alternative to failure is unthinkable. Period.

So let's close ranks, stand together with our open source brethren, and make damned sure that the unthinkable doesn't come to pass. Because, if the rest of us follow Janie's unfortunate example in this regard and lose heart, it certainly will.

Z.

<P>This is sad, really, really sad. Jamie's personality was a strong driver in the Mozilla community. </P> <P>I agree with what Chris Knolls said. Maybe he'll come back in a few months. In fact, I think a lot of people will be joining the Mozilla community once a beta is produced, particularly if the beta is all it's cracked up to be. </P> <P>I once saw a talk show on television where several people were talking about political campaigns. One woman, a veteran of several elections, said that if you think your candidate is going to win, don't worry about money at all. Because after you've won, the campaign contribution checks start piling in (all pre-dated, of course, to appear as though they were written before the elections.) </P> <P>I think that after Mozilla shows product, a lot of faith will grow, or just be restored. And that will probably attract more developers, since it will be, as Jamie said <I>the web browser that people are actually using</I>.</P>

damn. Forgot the "no html" thing

This is just the beginning, can't you see?

People, just keep on making Mozilla and make it as well as you can. Money isn't important. Deadlines are not important. Beating IE is not important. Just good quality is.

I've been using the nightly builds and I just drool waiting for a stable one. I have no need for an e-mail client or cream and strawberries. I just want a small, fast and stable browser and that's what Mozilla will be.

The only thing I'm sad about is that I haven't been able to contribute. I never liked C, so there's not much I can do. :-(

Netscape is a bunch of fools. I just lost a large chunk of respect for them, JWZ was one of the smartest people I have known. I agree completely with JWZ: Netscape had it's chance, and it fucking blew it.

This is a step closer to the complete death of "Netscape" and "mozilla". You can be fucking sure that Bill Gates is smiling today.

Yes, Gates is smiling today. This is a big black eye for AOL/Netscape, and that probably makes Mr. Gates glad. I hope Case and Company is learning a lesson from this. He stands to lose more than just jwz if he doesn't watch it.

Mozilla lives on, though! Let's do it for the rest of us. Show that Open Source can work like jwz said it could. Remember that unthinkable alternative and consider how god damn far we've come! Let's get it going now...

Mark

This is the beginning of the end. For me, the biggest surprise was not Jamie quitting, but his acknowledgment that Mozilla.org is a failure. I knew that a long time ago, but I never expected its greatest advocate to accept it.

The problem is much deeper: the Open Source model cannot succeed. Reason, very simple: it is not viable, like those piramid schemes. The programmers need money, so they have to code for them at least part-time. As a long-time Linux and Mozilla hacker, I know that one can work in his free time on an independent and exciting project, but how many of those can be? Just a hand-full. There is no way all the software in the world will be developed like that. Netscape made the huge mistake to expect a whole bunch of great developers to jump on Mozilla. Hello?! There are *few* good programmers out there, and they already have a day-job and a part-time project like Linux.

This is a wake-up call for the so-called "The Open Source Community". There are not enough resources to write everything "Open Source".

And the funny thing is that many of the people advocating Open Source are not even programmers, but lusers like web designers, support, testing or even -god forbid!- artists like Rob Malda. Some of them are mediocre or average coders, though. Very, very few (< 0.1% ?) are programming gods, able to design and code large and complex projects. And those few are busy!

So while the big mass of idiots is screaming "Let's Open Source everything", the real-programmers are having jobs, making mony and choosing a few select open source projects for their own free time.

And that's the way it's going to stay. Get used to it!

Dear mozAdmin,

This kind of defeatist crap is an excellent reason not to allow AC posting here.

Z.

It is difficult to accept different opinions, isn't it, Zontar? Well, just fyi, the universe is not moving around you, and diversity is the secret of evolution. So, please try to evoluate...

remember, big projects are bigger than one person. the direction that the current codebase is taking is the correct one . it observes the agreed standards -- more so than the opposition. as the basis for any number of things it is considerably stronger than the original. to label the development track as being in trouble beause of one (admittedly good) engineer had departed seems crazy to me. there is more depth to the mozillans than just jwz. i assume he recognises that (despite his obvious discomfort with the company.) it's a stong legacy.

jwz is a character. one of those people who make life interesting. but he is not the be all and end all. his opinions are often entertaining and intersting, but in the end they are his (as mine are mine). at times they may be divisive and counter productive -- even if at times his technical qualities are brilliant (altough i doubt jzw will be listed in the same breath as pope, proust or russel :-) (and yeah, i how he hates emoticons).

the success of the mozilla project is linked to many people. including people who are reading this. if you use the code, contribute to the code, document the bastard (please!) indulge in cool dark code magic or just plain think it's a great idea then pass the message on and keep going. mozilla will kick, 6-8 months late or not. and the dealy is worthwhile if it results in a strong new beginning. certainly the old code was rotting. the word is "retrenchment"

as a final remark. aol is fairly grim. but netscape was living on the edge. the solution is not perhaps perfect, but it does have intersting possiblities. at least users have an open source gecko, a future for all those platforms that we hold intersting and a strong basis for future developments.

onward and upward,

n.

nb

i am basically bald now, i do not think shaving half your hair off and painting your nails black is indicative of anything. anything who thinks that cool == intellectually rigorous is daft.

& baldness eventually comes to them what waits :-)

What a geek. Yeah, Moz is a huge failure, sure. M3 is FUCKING FANTASTIC and shows great promise. AOL hasn't "familified" Compuserve and they won't do it with Netcenter either. So while some idiots whine about failure, Mozilla steadily gets closer to beta.

BTW, what is an AC posting? Oh, Anonymous Coward? I don't really know who this guy is--I've never heard of him before now and, to my knowledge, I'd never heard him on this Zine, but quite honestly, who gives a shit? All that matters is making open source a reality, and now that it is close to coming to fruition, some coward jumps ship. Gee, maybe he'd have been happier with a Chapter 11 Netscape.

Sorry, how the hell did that happen? That was me above, and while it sounds in retrospect a bit hostile, I really don't think one person is going to have an effect.

To: Mozadmin: Stay the hell where you are! We don't need a freaking exodus! Netscape is going to be good for AOL, and AOL's pocketbook is going to be good for Netscape! I really don't see a downside here, considering Netscape was headed for closing its doors altogether. AOL won't censor Netcenter--Netcenter has adult customers that won't go for that crap, just like they didn't with Compuserve.

I hope Sun can turn their blundering asses around though.

JWZ's attitude is too self centered for a community project, that is the long and the short of it. His ego is stuck on being the 20th employee hired at netscape...oh well. No loss. JWZ had dreams thousands of developers in his head when he started the Mozilla project and when the developers didn't come right away well then fuck 'em i quit I'm out of here. Figure it out mozilla will never draw the developer base of a linux or apache because its a scratch that is already itched on many platforms for free. All i have to say is that you are a quitter so fuck you JWZ.

Dammit, this is old. Those last two were me, blast away. I kept forgetting to put in my password. Sorry, I am working a double today.

the two blank ones were me, I mean. I must say bob, I must agree.

Sad day for Mozilla.

But, to clear up a misconception in a previous message. JWZ's problem with Netscape in 98 was that they spent months working on Communicator 4.5 when all of them should have been working on Mozilla 5. The 4.5 project took many resources away from Mozilla that would have spead up the development, even with the decision to go to NGLayout.

I do not believe Mozilla is or will ever be a failure. There are too many of us who want it to succeed. XUL even looks like a potentially great new front end development environment. I think that Mozilla is late, but I think it is late because the Mozilla team made the tough decision to go to NGLayout. I think most of us here respect that decision and even todays builds have standards support that surpass IE5.

I am disappointed that Mozilla.org has the final release targeted to be released by year end. I had not expected this late a delay. But, if it means a better product, so be it.

Perhaps JWZ's departure will help get MozillaZine readers interested in helping the Mozilla project by writing code or just going to bugzilla and picking a bug and fixing it.

don't get me wrong I think the mozilla project is the best, and has and will succeed. I just think jwz is a bit to high on himself and i got a little hotheaded after seeing mr z's webpage o' bitchin'.

I agree with you that JWZ's resignation means nothing for the Mozilla.org project. The project don't depend on a sigle men. But what is interesting is what this resignation means per se.

Jamie was the head of that project. He belived in them than nobody else. He knew all about it. And he is much smarter than you hot heads, without letting religious fights clouding his judgement. And he's publically accepting that project's failure. That means something: that the project HAS failed.

Jamie is everything BUT a quitter. He just know when to leave a sinking ship. When to stop fighting for a lost cause.

"M3 is FUCKING FANTASTIC"?! LOL! If I didn't know Kovu from his previous postings (completely fanatic, usually missing the point and eternally making the user-name mistake) I would bother to answer.

I wish I could help, but a programmer I am not. I am a writer, though, and hopefully good for morale! I do check out the nightly builds from time to time, though, and must say M3 is a great morale booster by itself.

So he's mad because Netscape decided last year? WAAAAAAAAAH! They made the right decision eventually, why didn't he leave back then? It just shows that some companies actually do care about putting out a quality product, unlike other companies I could mention.

If Mozilla is a sinking ship, why don't YOU jump off it?

Because I am just as religious about it as you are, and I lack jwz's cinism. I still belive that there is a chance. It involves lots of hard work, but the first and most important thing is for the Mozillians to fucking understand that WE ARE IN DEEP SHIT!

Stop lying to ourselves! Listen to Jamie's wake-up call. We are WAY behind MS. When we acnoledge the real situation, we can start fixing it.

I know, you must be here to make all us "dreamers" wake up and smell the coffee. I agree with zontar. It's useless whiny, defeatist crap and no one wants to hear it.

And if you can't see M3 for its potential that's your problem. Many people slaved over that code and are still slaving over it, and doing a great job. Forgive me if I want to give them a pat on the back for it. M3 WORKS, and it shows great promise. Sinking ship my ASS.

HOW!!! You have people working on this code, M3 came out on rough schedule. What the hell do you mean? If nothing else AOL has FINANCIAL BACKING. Netscape is not going anywhere and neither, thus, is Mozilla! I agree we could step up the pace a bit but I don't see any suggestions as to how to do so!

Fluff

Let me quote one of the postings at SlashDot:

<QUOTE>

I found it amusing that MS was winning the browser war partly through it's bundling and all that, but partly by writing a better browser - NOT a typical MS approach. So Netscape acted somewhat Microsoftian and Microsoft acted, well, more normal. An IE3 download was better than an NS4 download. Of course when they started bundling with Windows w/ IE3&4 they went full tilt to monopoly abuse, but that's different. My credentials, btw: employee #14 at Netscape, even before jamie. NCSA before that. And long since departed. ~mark

</QUOTE>

Jamie Zawinski hasn't been involved in the coding of the NGLayout browser at all. He knows next to nothing about what is going on with the current codebase, and his resignation (timed nicely to coincide with the anniversary) is nothing more than a stunt from a showman who loves to play the media.

His departure is completely irrelevant. The project will get along just fine without him. It already was.

I don't know that any browser that deliberately tries to split web standards in favor of one company is considered a better browser. Netscape made mistakes--Mozilla is not one of them. They have proved by dropping the old code--as costly a move as that was--that they were ready to try to deal with that. The biggest mistake they ever could have made would been to have chosen to continue with the old code. IE3, 4, 5, and NS4 and 4.5x are all made from the past proprietary codes. I still don't see how we're "in deep shit" when Mozilla has a company as huge as AOL backing them now. They even went so far as to make the cuts half between AOL and Netscape workers--something many business writers said could be a mistake. I reiterate, Netscape is the best thing to happen to AOL. I don't like AOL's current browser, nor do I like their "family" stuff--that's why I stick with Netcenter.

As far as Microsoft being way ahead...well that is shit. I am using IE5 right now (sorry to say), and it is nothing great. No better than IE4, except is doesn't crash the whole damn system once an hour anymore. CSS1 support is terrible. Many other glitches in it.

Mozilla is not a sinking ship, it just may be a little off course. The aim needs to be more towards hitting Microsoft in the Balls, and embracing Linux. I can offer two suggestions here.

1. I was very intruged by Gecko running as an Active X Control. Maybe we could sell this thing as an "IE Enhancement" created by Mozilla. People would think they are using the same web browser with an enhancement, but instead they are using a whole new browser. People would download it if it works better and is a small file size. Technically, just how far can we take this Active X thing?

2. I think Mozilla should expand into the Liunx arena by doing more than just a web browser. Doing a whole Linux front end would really catch a lot of people's attention. Developers would certainly be interested in XUL, and users would be interested in an interface that is easier to use and more customizable. A webified interface is something that could go along with this.

Sorry to create such a long post, but I am trying to turn this whole JWZ thing into something constructive as we consider what we should do.

Anyone wanna start an open source project for developing XUL front ends for Mozilla? I am thinking Visual Basic, that way it will attract more programmers (one of Jamie's problems).

Not implying that we really should be doing anything different. What we could be.

Those engineers that aren't frightened of AOL--a company that no matter what anyone says is treading uncharted territory with over 16 million subscribers--should stay with AOL and make a difference there. It's not like AOL doesn't allow its browser to go to dirty sites, etc., it just doesn't want its members putting smut or hatred up on Hometown AOL pages because it doesn't want its image tarnished by that. Many of its members are families and that's perfectly understandable. That's like saying because the New York Times doesn't allow people to print classifieds with soul content that they destroy freedom of speech. It's just horsecrap.

JWZ left his company for what? Because Microsoft succeeded in pummeling Netscape to the point they had to seek shelter? Because they made a mistake in going with the proprietary code for awhile, and then righted that mistake resulting in a product that will be later than we had hoped? He left Netscape at the time they needed him the most.

Fluff? Kovu embodies fluff, he's a lion.

Isn't Visual Basic programming exclusively for Windows?

I think the Netscape front end for Linux is a fantastic idea if it could be done.

wow... a true loss.

one of the good guys

wow... a true loss.

one of the good guys

Dear jarr,

You said:

"...diversity is the secret of evolution. So, please try to evoluate..."

Why the fsck do you think I support Mozilla?

A hotshot C programmer I am not. Well, gol-leee, Aunt Bea, mea culpa. I resent your insinuation that anyone who isn't one is a useless blob of protoplasm. In point of fact, I'm one of those whom you describe as "lusers" -- I do websites using HTML, JavaScript, the DOM, and the odd bit of Perl. I'm one of the folks who's counting on Mozilla to help tip the balance in favor of standards, lest the Web be turned into one giant Visual Basic app whose primary function is to suck down money and power and output them in the general direction of Redmond, WA.

<SARCASM>My, my -- THAT would be a Great Leap Forward for evolution and diversity, now, wouldn't it?</SARCASM>

And since I don't code enough C or C++ to be of any, I try to do the next best thing -- I report UI and rendering glitches to BugZilla when I find 'em, and encourage my webhead friends to download builds and do likewise.

So, if you really meant what you said, and were not just engaging in Snively Whiplash melodramatics, you can (to quote jwz) "just bite me".

love,

Z.Luser

With the merger, JWZ either got (a) tons of money or (b) shafted. Either of these are a good reason to leave. I read his speil, and it seems like he wanted to leave a year ago, but he gave it another year because of the open-source stuff. Then he wasn't patient enough to wait for a release. The rest of the story is in his explanation. (This is not a criticism BTW, just a guess at a bigger picture.)

Oyyy....more problems....John Giannandrea has resigned... http://info.netscape.com/fwd/mycntnar_my/http://technews.netscape.com/computing/technews/newsitem/0%2C290%2C34598%2C00.html?pt.netscape.fd.hl.ne

Don't let the door hit you in the ass. I think anyone who wouldn't want the completed version of Mozilla 5.0 on their resume is stupid anyway. Developers can be replaced. They are not the only people on the planet capable of doing what they were doing. AOL will hire people in their place. I must say I hope this doesn't get any worse, but I don't think the project will suffer for it in the long run, no matter how many cowards bite the dust.

Folks, I want to remind you to keep your comments friendly! I fully understand that this is/will be a big issue, but just keep it clean. Thanks!

Anyways, I feel that Jamie quitting is a large loss, in the fact that he was a somewhat well known (on the net at least) person, who happened to be the voice of Mozilla. I don't believe that he was happy to find the project had dumped mozClassic and moved to NGL, and that they had dumped Motif and moved to GTK on Linux. He did little, if any, coding on NGL/Gecko, and seemed to be slowly disappearing anyways.

It is disappointing to see him leave in the fashion that he did, biting the hand that fed him well for four years, and attempting to rip apart what he created. He acted in an immature way, basically stating, if it didn't, and won't work for me, then it won't work for anyone.

While this, and the other departures from AOL/Netscape are very sad, we have much to look forward too. We now have an awsome browser, which gets better daily, a mail client which is much better than the various mozClassic mail attempts, and above all, it has support for all the latest standards. While many have doubted the project lately, it is quickly picking up momentum, and I believe that once more people see how well Mozilla is shaping up, everything from bug reporting to code contribution will pick up. Life is good right now, and it will only get better.

Jason Kersey mozAdmin 2

kerz,

Please excuse me if I got a little carried away. But I care about open standards, open source, and above all what these two things represent -- CHOICE.

I guess jarr's "luser" comment sort of stung me. I would LOVE to help with the code, but I have neither the expertise nor the tools to do so, and I don't see how I could aquire either within a short enough span of time to be of benefit to the source itself. (Shoot, I freely admit that I have almost no formal training in ANY kind of programming, and it's taken me two years to teach myself enough about JavaScript and the DOM that I can actually do something interesting and/or useful with it. I've also picked up a little Perl and Java, neither of which is of any real use to the project. If you really want to know, I was a math major who wrote homework programs in BASIC and Pascal, then dropped out of school, got sidetracked in a totally unrelated line of work for nearly ten years, then started getting back into the coding thing when I decided I wanted to do cool & weird stuff with Web pages...)

So I do what I can -- I download and run the builds through their paces. I occasionally uncover a bug (I think I've actually reported 4 unique ones to date). I wrote to somebody volunteering for the documentation project and never heard back from them. I wish I could do more. And it really riles me that I can't.

Sorry... I'm getting way off track here, I know.

I REALLY want to see this succeed. As you said yourself, the alternative is not thinkable.

If I've gotten out of line in expressing myself here, I apologize, and I await any opportunity that comes my way to further the project.

Well, it's getting really late where I live... I guess I'll quit wasting space and unpack today's build and play with it for a few minutes before I crash.

Z.

Jarr,

When you say "The Open Source model cannot succeed. Reason, very simple: it is not viable, like those piramid schemes. The programmers need money, so they have to code for them at least part-time." I think you are failing to consider programmers getting paid for open source development by companies, where these your so called "lusers" provide feedback to the developers, and if able simple fixes. I see this as a benefit of open source development.

Say another company takes your Open Source work and uses it with their product competing with yours, I would think (using the GPL) that they would have to open their source to you and thus level the playing field.

An instance where some company would not want Open Source would be if they were already dominant with their product in what ever market they were competing in i.e. OS, Office Software, Databases, etc.

Granted i am not a "real programmer" either, but I can see where it would be in the best interest of some companies to pay programmers to develop open source software, RedHat is an instance that comes to mind. So i dont see your statement that the Open Source development model as being true.

To Jarr & his fellow pessimists,

Please crawl back under the rock from which you came out of!!! We already have enough shit to deal with without you people bitching and whining. Instead of bellyaching, why don't you head over to mozilla.org and see if you can contribute in any way.

As a Web Designer, I have spent in excess of 2000 hours writing test pages that would put Mozilla "through the wringer". As a result of this, I have filed over 40 bugs into Bugzilla. If this constitutes me as a "luser", according to Jarr, then I am damned proud to be one!!!

One last note...since you people will be the ultimate beneficiaries of the hard work put in by me and my fellow Lizardmen, please have some respect for us.

To my brothers in arms,

Jamie's resignation is a blow to us. But please remeber that the Mozilla Project is larger than any one individual. He will be missed, but the project will continue. There are many , many people out there who are counting on us to succeed. Failure is not an option because, as MozAdmin stated so eloquently, the alternative is unthinkable.

Keep the faith...

Shashi

Failure is not unthinkable, it's impossible. The project is obviously going to be finished one way or another with AOL's financial backing--they need it to be finished in the worst way.

To: greyghost--Doczilla is the perfect example of what you were saying. Someone has already taken Mozilla to their own level, and contributed back the codebase I believe. Also, on one of these threads I remember reading from someone who was employed specifically by his company to work on Mozilla. Workers from Intel are working on it as well, as well as HP and other companies who REALLY want this to happen.

To: Zontar... don't feel bad, I'm in your boat as well. I figure if I can't do anything else I can d/l the builds and come here and be a cheerleader. I am just sick of people coming here and bashing Moz when it's finally so close to fruition. That's like coming to someone's birthday party and taking a dump on their floor--and that's exactly what JZ did by timing it so, so I don't have much sympathy for him, or any others. With friends like them, Moz hardly need enemies.

Well now two key figures in Mozilla have left in huff. But who really is in charge here?! Who helped start Netscape and Mozilla?! Don't look to Steve Case or other AOL wags to have much sympathy, when they have a 20,000 ft view to things. It would very helpful for morale and direction, if Marc Andreessen or someone closer like MozAdmin stood up to plate in Mozilla and gave some definite goals, and sense of direction. Having tried M3, I think there is a good foundation for a product. Obviously, right now the immediate goal should be to ship 5.0, and then go on from there. At Apple, whether or not you like his actions, Steve Jobs came in and made some hard decisions and got things moving forward. I respect Jamie's passion and his sense of not taking any shit. But if he leaves, then let the mourning of his passing be short and intense, and then take that passion to do something worthwhile. The recent melissa macro virus shows that a MS-centric world is filled with holes of vulnerability. The melissa virus is a non-issue for Communicator users. That's my two cents from the cheap seats.

Is that true? I had heard Melissa attacks any address book. Also, I don't think you can count Apple, since they took money from Microsoft to stay alive. Didn't Gates bring Jobs back in? Granted, the iMac is doing well, but I think Apple's just a grinning corpse with Microsoft's hand pushed up the spine to give some illusion of competition.

>> It's not like AOL doesn't allow its browser to go to dirty sites, etc., it just doesn't want its members putting smut or hatred up on Hometown AOL pages because it doesn't want its image tarnished by that.

Ah, yes they do indeed prevent from going places. The last thing I remember from my AOL membership is that they prevented you from using a News Reader through their connection. Instead you had to use the one built into AOL which only allowed family-friendly newsgroups.

Yes i think you guys have to realize there are programmers out here lurking in the background studying what is going on and getting ready to start contributing in what ever way they possibly can

i for one believe this to be the beginnings of a programing revolution!

Two big shots leave and suddenly the rest of you panic? Wot is this?

They were 2 and you are hundreds! This is OSS and if you don't do the job then who will?

BTW Jamie had been a depressed naysayer (yay Kovu!) for quite some time.

One more thing. If NS didn't pay you to program this code, would you do it in your own time? if you answer is NO, then this isn't really a project by the people for the people. If your answer is YES then no resignations of depressed people can stop you.

My dream is that you ship this browser and XUL becomes a script for more programs than you thought possible. Also, I imagine rel 5.5 will be awesome. 5.0 will have established the basis for fame, 5.5 will deliver greater features and benefits. It will bring fortune.

To put it simly. 5.0 establishes the playing field. Then 5.5 must deliver what no one else can - truly new and awesome products on this platform.

No resignations can stop you now, only you can stop yourselves!

Microsoft sucks with Netscape then Mozilla and Jamie there was hope. Is this his way of saying Microsuck is better or just another April 1 joke? Let the Legend begin...........

Looks like DEC Alpha GNU/Linux users will never have a good browser.

Mozilla was my last hope.

first jwz says that Netscape doesn't innovate. Then he complains When they scrap the old stuff in favor of nglayout and all of the consequences that follow (delays, no 4.5 release, etc). What's better-release 4.5 which is alot of work and gives us a netscape 5 which is really 4.5+ and screw the developers? Mozilla the Open Source Project didn't start yet. But it has to start right and that means we have to wait. It means going to XUL and a lean standards compliant engine. It means we have to be patient.

yes. cowards beware.

last time I checked - XEmacs wasn't dead as a doornail.

The explanation for JWZ's departure more likely involves some burnout and the need to either:

- spend some time spending the money he made by: 1) selling his shares when they peaked years ago or 2) accepting AOL's generous offer for shares he acquired only recently OR - find a job because he got shafted royally and could see the writing on the wall.

JWZ is really an author/writer trapped in a coder's body ;-) He obviously feels the need to speak the truth as he sees it and I think some hyper-sensitive and overwrought interpretations of what he said have been made here.

Retirement activities: I think he should go write a novel/memoir the contemporary cyberworker version of Orwell's "Down and out in Paris and London" ... and maybe help out here and there with XFree GNOME or mozilla ;-)

JWS inspired us some rules of thumb: 1. Never believe in someone who have a big picture of himself in his homepage; 2. Never believe in someone who needs to put a "retirement statement" in his homepage; 3. Never believe in someone who thinks that dated "releases" are the key issues in open source developement; 4. Never believe in mail client writers; 5. Never believe in someone who states that his company has hired lots of stupid people, when, in fact, they have done a better job in 6 months than what all that "smarties" did in 4 years; 6. Just wait and see: wannabies always shoot their feets

He's right because (obviously) the "free software model" has to appear hopeless and weak compared to the marketing efforts of your average $100 billion dollar company. But he's wrong too because he's been sucked in by the same attitudes he's trying to criticize.

College kids releasing one of their projects under BSD/Artistic/GPL (which should be a requirement for graduation) or semi-retired engineers hacking some driver for XFree 'cause their teen nephew is using Linux is going to appear pretty "unglamourous" compared to the marketroid stuff. But because people's expectations are way off track, (due largely to *unrealistic Linux mania and hype*) the real value of those small contributions is overlooked. Unix is 30 years old: demanding your OSS Office Suite NOW and declaring the OSS model a failure if it doesn't occur is insane and it's an attitude that is fostered by the current hyped up atmosphere of "competition" between free OSS and M$. Jarr is right to point out some of the limitations of OSS but he's judging it using criteria that have been warped by the current climate.

Personally I love the way NetBSD just keeps on truckin' away - steadily improving ... maybe moving up a point release (0.01) once in a while but never asserting it's going to "take over the world" (umm I think even Linus means that ironically). And yet look where the BSD core ends up: inside NeXT, inside MacOS/NX, inside a ton of software "appliances" - huge spews of press coverage don't occur but it keeps improving.

Maybe Linux should go back to it's "silently the stealthy Linux" mode for a while ... and people should calm down a bit. Think of software more like art - like something you can author ... partly. Think of what you can contribute to that art. A lot artists, writers and poets you can find in the library poured themselves into their work because they enjoyed it and because some benefactor or inheritance allowed them to. If you can do that with free software then do it.

And adding artistry to science isn't just whimsical: The great thing about art is it's often free, publically available, it's in the library and it it's impervious to being declared a "failure" ...

Imagine you're 46 and for fun you "develop" some Unix software with your 14 year old nephew and his geeked out girlfriend (they can't believe someone your age knows about Unix). It's more fun that buying it at the store. Maybe you go the beach afterwards and surf for real. It's not a "competitive" model for software development but combine it with some other things (Cygnus, Mozilla, RedHat, *BSD's) and you get more than the sum of the parts ...

(Post this widely and trash it if you must - I remain, Snowshoe guy in the woods)

you rule snowshoe guy, not because I get your point exactly--stream of consciousness if fine but hard to fathom--but you get your it'ss and itss and theirs and theres right and can disagree with someone without hostility and saying LOL.

P.S., I agree about the HUGE picture on the homepage. Okay, ego. Okay, incoherent computer jargon. You guys are developers and yet I can understand most of you. Will we ever hear from the two now tip-toeing through the daisies again? Do we care? Anyone else leaving should do so now so AOL can replace them in short order with those who want to roll down their sleeves and take on that final stretch.

The most beautiful thing of all of this is that if Microsoft had not forced Netscape to give Communicator away free, Mozilla would most likely not exist today. Let's make 'em regret it. Whiny cowards take heed.

uh... roll up their sleeves that is

mozilla isn't just about linux. The java mozilla is still alive and kicking. Be Inc hired an engineer to work on it. Doczilla is a windows program. I also think that there's more to mozilla than just open source. It means cross platform, w3c standards support and an open bugs database. And translation to any language you want-that will really change the web

To: pete collins.

I'm one of those people who would like to work on Mozilla if I could - but my C programming is not good enough. In a few years, I will have finished my University degree and then I'll work on Mozilla, coding stuff. You see, there are lots of messages I see here saying basically the same thing: "We want to help, but we cannot code -- yet". Mozilla has inspired many people to do things for the Lizard, and some of these are the future coders, the future caretakers of the Mozilla project.

So to address JWZ's point of there being little developer interest? Listen up: *WE* are the developers of tomorrow. And in a couple of years, we'll be coding alongside everybody else and adding our $0.02 to the codebase. And when 5.0 finally arrives, I'll bet there will be another dozen or two developers who'll leap into action on the browser -- just give it time.

In fact, it really doesn't matter whether the Mozilla.org project dies out for now. It'll just become a Linux kind of thing then: the source code will still exist, and a few people will eventually pick it up and improvise; it'll only be used by programmers at first, and spread to everyone as the word goes out about the newer, faster lizard on the block. Mozilla is not dead, nor will it ever truly die as long as the source is out there, and no matter how long it takes, it will win out.

-=Yusuf=-, hoping he doesn't actually have to wait 20 years for 5.0 tho...

PS Jarr and his fellow cohorts: You'll be using this program soon, so you might as well contribute instead of standing around, sucking your respective thumbs and whining!

oh mozilla isn't going to die-the only question is whether we'll see more outside developers. But Netscape is doing a great job anyway with mozilla-they are giving us alot of the stuff we want

Hallelujah my brothers(sisters?)! That anyone would consider AOL stupid enough to let Mozilla croak is silly--won't happen! All of AOL and Sun's future plans involve getting Moz/NS 5.0 out this year--it will happen. Check out the new sced--it's a good possibility to have a beta (not a Microsoft beta, a real beta) out by JUNE 20th! That's two and half months! This thing is growing like mad, I for one can hardly wait.

Okay JULY 20th, that was mozadmin's fault though (the thread intro says June)

JWS inspired us some rules of thumb: 1. Never believe in someone who have a big picture of himself in his homepage; 2. Never believe in someone who needs to put a "retirement statement" in his homepage; 3. Never believe in someone who thinks that dated "releases" are the key issues in open source developement; 4. Never believe in mail client writers; 5. Never believe in someone who states that his company has hired lots of stupid people, when, in fact, they have done a better job in 6 months than what all that "smarties" did in 4 years; 6. Just wait and see: wannabies always shoot their feets

JWS has shown the "Butthead Factor" that Steve Ballmer has always used to joke about Netscape (of course, both JWS and SB are buttheads, but SB wouldn't leave Microsoft because the ego-ish point that "it doesn't fit with his expectations")

Sorry about the date mixup. M9 is tentatively planned for July 20, Not June 20, as I had in the news item.

--chris

great buzzard, now if you could just change your message before reposting it.

I scanned JWZ's parting snivel--sorry, if he doesn't consider this project innovation (he said NS has stopped innovating) then I think it's better off without him.

JWS has shown the "Butthead Factor" that Steve Ballmer has always used to joke about Netscape (of course, both JWS and SB are buttheads, but SB wouldn't leave Microsoft because the ego-ish point that "it doesn't fit with his expectations")

what is with the double messages today! This thread takes long enough to load as it is!

Yes it was sad to see JWZ resign. It is also truly sad to see so many wallow in the supposed mire that this creates. But what is truly saddest, what is really pathetic is that after one year, JWZ and mnay other people are giving up the ship without any perspective at all.

I have been using Linux since 0.99pl??? (I forget actually). I remember the days when NDAs ruled the roost or simply no hardware specs existed at all. Put it into perspective - no Adaptec 2940, no support for Diamond vid boards, etc. Now companies actively solicit the Linux community for support.... Hmmm... how long did that take like almost 5 years... 5 times as long as JWZ took to deem 5.0 "a failure". Don't fool yourself, the Mozilla project is about as large and complex as the Linux source tree (complete with architecture diffs).

It has been a source of great joy to see Mozilla evolve into Gecko. One year to make this so, one year to cast off the burdens of Motif (something I seem to remember JWZ had a penchant for), one year make what I think could become the browser we all (Win32, Mac, and Unix users) can call our own.

I foresee a long prosperous life for the lizard! JWZ can find something else to grouse about. And I am sure he will...

Ah well. 30 programmers outside Netscape contributed to the project. Microsost had/has more people working on IE than netscape has employees. 30 people. 30. Three Zero. This is as "big profile" an open source project as you'll ever get. 30 people. Did any of you expect it to suceeed?

Take into account all of the people who have contributed bug reports, and those working on ports and new applications, and the number is much more that 30. Much.

take into account the barriers to entry (i will use win32 as an example) to be able to build the code base on win32 you need these components:

10.0 MB - ms platform sdk, 13.5 MB - cygnus gnu tools, 5.0 MB - Perl 5.x, 2.5 MB - cvs, 75.0 MB - moz source, ----------------------- 106.0 MB - approx. total

add this to the expense of MS VC++ and you have a high barrier just get a frickin' build.

with linux you trade money for time, (didn't jwz make an infamous quote about this)

make no mistake, contributing to mozilla is no easy task. i have the utmost respect for the 30 who have gained commit privileges.

over time people will continue to join and when the releases come the masses will follow, but as it is mozilla should work on the barriers to entry.

Here are my suggestions: a. post a tutorial for CVS b. find a way to make the source downloads more modular (it is probably easy to do this in cvs, but i haven't figured it out yet see point a.) c. watch the download sizes under two days on a 56k might be a good goal. (do we really need perl in the process, etc.)

anyways more modularity and more documentation...

late, hardy

well having the UI in xul format makes it much easier for me to do some of the stuff I want to do

Hmmm.... I don't know how he can assume that, just because its mostly Netscape employees working on the project, that its a failure. Its ovious the these people would work on the project.

a) It was their code in the first place.

b) Its going to become Netscape 5.0. With a vested intrest like that, Of course the Mother-company is going to be the main contributer.

But other companies, (the BeOS people for example) are starting to throw their people in too. because it makes business sence to them to pay employees.

IBM just recently stepped up to the open source plate; putting their weight behind Linux. That has to be because, as Linux's name got bantied around in the press, customers asked for it. The press is starting to come in about Mozzila; and its some good press. Once the beta comes out and people start playing with (and enjoying) it, and mainstream papers start putting out opinions, which they will; (stalwort band of part-time hackers building a "Giant-Killer" browser from the ashes of the Old Netscape browser is good copy) I think you'll see a lot of small companies using it. And you'll see a lot of big companies (whose customers are those self same small companies) putting their weight behind it, with full-time employees, and support for the browser. Two such ponential companies are IBM & Oracle, who already have close ties to Netscape, and direct, vested intrests in making sure Microsoft is humbled.

Besides, the main contributer to the project (AOL) also owns almost half the net. People will be able to not hear about it.

Build it, and they will come.

(N.B. maybe this is a very carefully orchestrated stunt to try and kick the code-jockeys in the butt. Call their work crap, and see if they come back swinging; good old fasion reverse-psycology)

Yeah, speaking of the way JWZ called Mozilla a failure, I've read dozens of articles on the Mozilla.Org project and Gecko. *NOT ONE* of these articles had anything bad to say about the browser being built, all were enthusiastic about the standards compliance, and the CSS1 support, and the sheer fantastic speed of the Lizard. The closest that they came to a put-down was when they said "We're so sorry we won't be able to see this for some time yet, it's still being developed".

IMHO, that's not an insult. That's an accolade.

How can Mozilla be a failure when every single review gushes about it? When 5.0 comes out, it'll do more than level the playing field: it'll kick the MS team right off the map.

-=Yusuf=-

I've followed Mozilla's development since the beginning and I for one couldn't remember what JWZ has done until he quite.

"Ah well. 30 programmers outside Netscape contributed to the project. Microsost had/has more people working on IE than netscape has employees. 30 people. 30. Three Zero. This is as "big profile" an open source project as you'll ever get. 30 people. Did any of you expect it to suceeed?"

And what has changed in Ie 4 to IE 5, nothing much. I know I have and I am using both. Maybe MS should contribute to Mozilla and use it for IE 6.

contribute they won't. use it they will

I, and most others on the perifery of the Mozilla project, know far too little about Netsape/AOL's corporate politics to estimate the impact of JWZ's departure. Unfortunately, as JWZ himself points out, Mozilla remains so strongly tied to Netscape/AOL that any corporate reverberations wi impact the project. To JWZ's to-tartget list of reasons Mozilla has failed to become a truely open-source project (no GNU license, documentation: too little, too late) I would like to add one more: JWZ wanted Mozilla to continue to be a browser for the man-in-the-street, not for the developer. Suggestions to support outside editors, ssh/ftp and other such "power-user" goodies were disregarded in the quest for ever more GUI gizmos. But developers like to alter code for their own purposes, not those of Netscape/AOL.

If they just ship the damn thing. :-) Contributing to Mozilla when the browser barely is functioning and the infrastructure seem to change from week to week is a pain. If it just stabilize I'm sure people will start poking around more. Open Source will work at its best when fixing bugs and small new features. Not rebuilding the whole goddam infrastructure.

So dear Mozilla, as in an worthless American film (with Kevin Costner):

If you build it, they will come.

Cheer up