MozillaZine

IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

Thursday March 18th, 1999

IE5 is out, and not only is it incompatible with CSS1, but it's DOM is faulty (and proprietary) and HTML4 support is incomplete. Also, it's XML Namespaces implementation is just plain wrong. It does poorly on the Import test, and renders the boxacidtest improperly (and badly).

On an interesting note, the article I linked to above was available this morning. Now, if you go to news.com and find the same article (it has a new link), you'll find that all of the criticism regarding MS's standards compliance has been placed on a second page of the article. Look at the two links to see what I mean. Curious, no?

In response to criticism of their standards support, Microsoft's Mike Nichols said, "It's ironic that people are challenging our standards support when we have led by a substantial margin in this area since IE4". As I mentioned before, expect Microsoft to blame Netscape for Microsoft's lack of 100% standards compliance. The first person to point us to a new article that makes this claim (Microsoft already stated something similar months ago) will get a MozillaZine T-Shirt, when they come available. Our T-Shirts are still in the design phase, but we expect to have something soon.

Folks, stay calm. The Mozilla team is working hard to get a basic browser/mail-news reader into your hands that you can start using full-time. If you need standards compatibility, just go to our fetchBuilds section and download the latest build for your platform. You can see how the new browser, "apprunner", is shaping up, and try out your pages in the testbed viewer, undeniably the most standards compliant browser on the planet.


#1 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by Anonymous Coward

Thursday March 18th, 1999 3:41 PM

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hey! The Linux port actually displays an empty box on my screen now before it crashes! ;)

On a serious note, has anyone gotten the nightly builds to at least work? I've been trying the builds off and on for a month and none of them even gave me a window with content. (I use Debian 2.2 (potato) and I've recently upgraded to glibc2.1 using the debs from potato)

#2 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by Bruce <bruce@cenderis.demon.co.uk>

Thursday March 18th, 1999 3:49 PM

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The Linux builds also fail for me. Why i686? I only have an i586; is that what's wrong?

#3 Re: shit or get off the pot

by Jim Kingdon

Thursday March 18th, 1999 3:56 PM

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Microsoft's contention - that IE is ahead of Netscape in terms of implementing *AND RELEASING* a standards-compliant browser is true. I know the Mozilla folks are working on it, but until Mozilla/Netscape releases something which actually works for everyday use, then it doesn't really count (for most purposes).

#4 Really?

by mozineAdmin

Thursday March 18th, 1999 4:33 PM

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Since when was IE standards compliant? HTML? CSS? XML? They've released a browser, but I've never seen them release a standards compliant browser. See my post in the talkback to the article "IE5 Preview at News.com" as to why 80% compliant is as useful as 10% compliant.

#5 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by Tekhir

Thursday March 18th, 1999 4:36 PM

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To you linux folk. the Win32 builds did that for a while on my machine too, even when everybody was taking screenshots mine was opening then crashing. I say Linux is behind a month, but is learning from other platform's mistakes.

I find it funny how MS says they're mor standards complient than Netscape. Of course they are, they came out almost a year later when the standards were standarized. NS took a chance to be the first browser with HTML support, they lost when things changed.

#6 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by Mike Barnes <mdbarnes@bellsouth.net>

Thursday March 18th, 1999 4:57 PM

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my downloads were breaking until I removed the old build and then installed a fresh copy. Not sure what was going on but this cleared up my problems (I now get apprunner to work!!!!!!!!!)

#7 Re: shit or get off the pot

by Matt Perry

Thursday March 18th, 1999 5:31 PM

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<P> Jim Kingdon wrote:</P>

<BLOCKQUOTE> Microsoft's contention - that IE is ahead of Netscape in terms of implementing *AND RELEASING* a standards-compliant browser is true. I know the Mozilla folks are working on it, but until Mozilla/Netscape releases something which actually works for everyday use, then it doesn't really count (for most purposes).</BLOCKQUOTE>

<P> Although I see where you are coming from, the thing that is important is that Mozilla is making progress and you can see that daily. If IE5 has been "released" in such a sad state, it only goes to show the direction that Microsoft is moving in and where they plan on going. Obviously this isn't standards compliance.</P>

#8 Re: IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Complian

by basic <_basic@yahoo.com>

Thursday March 18th, 1999 5:43 PM

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Just Download the "Comunicator Prototype" 3/18/1999 build and using it to send this message. Looks good!

#9 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by arielb

Thursday March 18th, 1999 5:52 PM

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Mozilla's sincerity to standards compliance can be proven since mozilla won't support the layer tag and some of the other big standards problems of NS4. It's time for MS to do the same and drop the non-standard DOM and move to the w3c DOM

#10 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by Yorgaseen

Thursday March 18th, 1999 6:45 PM

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IE5 may not be compliant, but it sure is fast. It displays pages much faster than NS4.51, lays them out very quick, can scroll through complex pages rapidly and has much better cut and paste. It seems to layout pages and not require silly refreshes as often as NS on resize/refresh etc, which makes it even faster. (And still supports :hover from CSS2.. NS? hello?)

Mozilla has much work to do to catch up to this speed demon. Compliance is important, but the world keeps turning, and unless Mozilla has a product soon I don't see why people would want to wait with old technology rather than going with IE5. Very sad for me to say, but I am impressed with IE5 so far.

And if there are tags that work in IE but are not standard, I hope Mozilla can support them externally through an addon .dll or something "ieaddontags.dll" so we don't continually get left behind.

We can rant about non compliance, but 99.9% of the world just doesn't care.. they want things to work. IE5 is popular no matter how much you bash it from a technical standpoint (same for windows), so it is silly to beat your head against the wall. Better to put effort towards building a better product and _lead_ the pack rather than straggle behind condemning the leader. People will gravitate towards the better product. But a compliant product doesn't necessarily mean better. Again, 99.9% of the people just don't know or care.

#11 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by Daniel Hill <danielhill@mindless.com>

Thursday March 18th, 1999 7:39 PM

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well, i'm not wasting 100 megs on downloading microshite software - and mozilla preAlpha is faster and more stable than IE5 beta 2. i'll have a look when APC or someone stick it on a cd, but i doubt it will stay.

as for ie's standards, well, that's a load of crap. HOVER isn't a CSS standard attribute, so stop bringing that up. i hate it when people say NS isn't CSS because it doesn't hover - they're uninformed MS drones.

long live the lizard

dan

#12 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by Daniel Hill <danielhill@mindless.com>

Thursday March 18th, 1999 7:49 PM

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oh yeah, i forgot, yorgaseen - why do we need IE tags polluting the standards? authors should write to the standards when NS5 comes out - if it don't work in IE, too bad. or, embed mozilla in ie - that's a good idea

dan

#13 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by jawbone <jlp@ematic.com>

Thursday March 18th, 1999 7:52 PM

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Um, I'm no Microsoft defender, but :HOVER is indeed in the CSS spec (CSS2)

<http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-…ml#dynamic-pseudo-classes>

#14 IE 5 is really IE 4.5

by Caustic <jdub@student.usyd.edu.au>

Thursday March 18th, 1999 8:01 PM

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Okay, nothing to do with the Macintosh version, but IE 5 really is IE 4.5!!!

Look through the registry and you'll see heaps of references to it being IE 4.0, and just having registry entries to pick up the 5.0 versioning.

Basically I think Microsoft has smacked a few bits and pieces into IE 4, changed the back end a bit, and optimized it... Yes! Optimized!

Bravo to Microsoft for this coding feat: Well done! ;)

I wouldn't be surprised if they shelved half their compliance plans for IE 5 and concentrated on user-seen features after the kerfuffle that Mozilla/Netscape/AOL have been making.

Looks like they're running scared!

Perhaps they'll release a service pack for IE5, or a 5.5 version closer to the Mozilla date so they can have me-too compliance... But then... How many users are update fanatics like us?!?

Keep the good code rolling!

#15 'Hover': Is it a standard?

by AdamV <adamv@nwlink.com>

Thursday March 18th, 1999 8:26 PM

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There is a comment above about: """ as for ie's standards, well, that's a load of crap. HOVER isn't a CSS standard attribute, so stop bringing that up. i hate it when people say NS isn't CSS because it doesn't hover - they're uninformed MS drones. """

Please surf on over to: <http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-…ml#dynamic-pseudo-classes>

I didn't think it was standard either, before I checked.

#16 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by Jacob Steenhagen <jsteenhagen@novagate.com>

Thursday March 18th, 1999 9:10 PM

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What I find most interesying about all this is that Microsoft helped to develope the CSS and HTML 4 standards, and then they failed to support them in their browser. You'd think (at least I would) that they'd wanna be able to claim that they were the first to reach full compliance with the newest web standards. But this is Microsoft, and they never have cared about the users, only the bottom line ($$$). I think Caustic's scenario is very likely to happen (a SR or new version that supports the standards either just before NS releases the first Beta, or before the full release, guess we'll have to wait and see which).

Oh well, downloading the current build of NS 5... can't wait to see it (this is my first build... :O)

#17 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by Thomas Winzig

Thursday March 18th, 1999 10:18 PM

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To the moron who said IE5 is popular, "because it just works," or whatever... WHO THE HELL SAID IT WAS POPULAR? It just came out like YESTERDAY. Who are you, Mr. Gallup for chrissakes?!?

"unless Mozilla has a product soon I don't see why people would want to wait with old technology rather than going with IE5."

Who's waiting? I'm using NS 4.5 right now, and believe it or not ... it works GREAT! I don't need to live on the bleeding edge. Shit I can remember when Netscape was putting out version .9x and the big deal was BACKGROUNDS!

(This was before the web was even a glint in Bill Gates eyes... and wayyyyy before they decided to rewrite history and claim it so.)

#18 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by Kovu <Kovu401@netscape.net>

Thursday March 18th, 1999 10:27 PM

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One major MS tactic is that by allowing customers to change the MS icon in the upper right, they hope to head off open source. By allowing portals like Altavista etc. to give their versions of IE customized, they are hoping to make IE the standard in the market by the time NS 5.0 comes out. They are aware AOL 5.0 is going to lose 16 million customers for them, are well aware that NS 5.0 is going to be ridiculously compliant and portable to just about everything, and are trying to head the market off at the pass now before it's too late for them. Likely they saw the window coming and snuffed compliance in favor of getting the product out first, giving them at least six months of market saturation. Hopefully, the fact that IE code is still proprietary and closed will make this not matter much in the end.

Hail Mozillans, to your computers, and help prevent this potential catastrophy!

Actually, I'm not too worried. AOL has mucho cash and NS (the deal wound up costing like 9.8 bil!) is worth a great deal of money to them. The last thing they want to see is IE 5 become standard, and will be infusing significant funding into making sure this does not happen. Have faith, and sleep little!

#19 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by ya ya

Thursday March 18th, 1999 10:29 PM

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BTW, IE 5 is actually, in full version, 29 MB as opposed to 40 MB for IE 4.

#20 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by ya ya

Thursday March 18th, 1999 10:51 PM

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Of course that doesn't mean it's way too damn big.

#21 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by Daniel Hill <danielhill@mindless.com>

Thursday March 18th, 1999 11:41 PM

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what?? 29mb for full?? are you sure? maybe without a java vm, mail, news, composer, javascript, ANYTHING.

oh yeah, i was wrong about the hover attribute. sorry. mozilla doesn't support it yet. but, it will be as annoying as MARQUEE and BLINK. i say ban it.

#22 Re: in full version, 29 MB as opposed to 40 MB

by basic <_basic@yahoo.com>

Friday March 19th, 1999 1:23 AM

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Ahem! According to this <http://www.microsoft.com/…s/IE/TechInfo/default.asp> Minimal install (browser-only): Required for install: 45 MB Required to run: 27 MB after restart Typical install: Required for install: 70 MB Required to run: 55 MB after restart

Full install: Required for install: 111 MB Required to run: 80 MB after restart

I don't have the guts to download IE 5 to verify this yet. Anyone can confirm?

#23 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by Angus Davis <angus@tellme.com>

Friday March 19th, 1999 1:54 AM

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Umm, not to jump in on a stupid argument, but :hover is a valid CSS2 pseudo class. Read the spec. And yes, it will work in Mozilla 5. Tom Pixley <<joki@netscape.com>> is responsible for hooking up the events subsystem to do the right thing; I believe Peter Linss <<peterl@netscape.com>> already hooked things up on the CSS side of things.

#24 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by boby

Friday March 19th, 1999 4:23 AM

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I downloaded the whole distribution directory: the dist is ~77MB, but this includes the versions for win95, 98, NT, the IEAK, Outlook, HTML authoring tools and more (Flash, etc). If you want to have a working browser, ~8MB are enough to download. With ~11MB, you get most of the stuff you need.

#25 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by --sam <webmaster@leafdigital.com>

Friday March 19th, 1999 6:42 AM

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As for whether 80% is better than 10% compliance or not; it's irrelevant. The key factor in moving the Web forward is the amount of standards which the two major browsers have in common. The least compliant browser was Netscape 4.x on Tuesday and it's still Netscape 4.x today - no change. Web designers have to cater for both major browsers.

When Netscape 5.0 comes out, IE5 will be the browser holding us back. Until then, it's still Netscape.

By the way, I haven't downloaded IE5. I tried Windows Update, it didn't work. Finally I found the "win95" download procedure, which you download a small program that then downloads the rest for you.. the small program downloaded, but it doesn't manage to download anything else. Having said that, Netscape's Smart Update didn't work either (I wanted 4.51).

(I'm installing the new mozilla build, and it downloads perfectly. Ho hum. You can get the developer stuff with no hassle at all, but the finished, consumer-ready versions are impossible to obtain...?)

--sam

#26 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by Woodrow Hill

Friday March 19th, 1999 7:01 AM

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I downloaded it (already have Office 2000 on this machine, with IE 5 Beta) yesterday -- it was about 30 megs, and that's w/o Outlook Express and other goodies (not developing for IE 5, that's for sure!) Ran some speed tests vs. Mozilla build from around mid-Feb. For your info, I'm running a HP Vectra box, 233 PII. IE seems to process jpeg images slightly faster, but we get the nod for fastest to layout page by far, according to myself and others observing (including a fellow who uses IE 4 on his machine, by his own preference) Keep it up, guys! Getting that layout down is MUCH more critical then getting pretty pictures up -- at least for the corporate user.

#27 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by Kovu <Kovu401@netscape.net>

Friday March 19th, 1999 9:17 AM

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Yeah, NS may not be compliant at this point, but to say it's the browser that's "holding us back" is gibberish when you consider all the proprietary crap they added and that they STILL don't fully support CSS1--even less so than IE4 did! Sorry, I agree with the web standards project--IE5 is a lost chance, and it makes me happy, friends and neighbors, because MS is proving once again that it is one of its own worst enemies. Bummer.

MS has some talented people working for it, and they worked so hard helping develop HTML4 and other standards, and then the morons in charge make decisions like IE5 to try to turn web browsing into a MS only standard just like they tried with Java++. Yeah, IE5 is really "tough" all right. Tough pill to swallow, you can HAVE it.

As for d/ling NS 4.51 with Smartdownload, it worked perfectly fine for me. Maybe you should reinstall.

#28 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by Tekhir

Friday March 19th, 1999 1:48 PM

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Most people still use the 3.0 series of the browsers.

#29 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by Joe... <joeja@mindspring.com>

Friday March 19th, 1999 5:18 PM

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I saw this coming once Netscape had been bought by AOL/Sun. But who will stop them from NOT obeying the standards? M$ has there foot in the door, to the internet. They are powerful enought to start writing there own standards, and getting people to use them. And they are. I posted something similar when I read about the buyout on /.org. So yes Linux has a desktop now, Gnome & KDE, but there are few apps. M$ has the all the products. Although more and more companies are coming to Linux, they are not coming all the way. I woudln't expect them to either. Off topic: I think vmware will make it big. People will be ale to run Windows and there windows app, on a Linuc box. So you'll be abel to use MS office and IE4 on your Linux Box in a window. AND when it WINDOWS crashes you don't have to reboot your machine, just restart the virtual machine. (lol).

#30 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by Daniel Hill <danielhill@mindless.com>

Friday March 19th, 1999 6:49 PM

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yeah, i was wrong, i was looking at CSS1, not CSS2 : but was CSS2 out when IE4 came out?? if it wasn't, then this proves the point -- MS don't give a shite about standards.

#31 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by FrodoB

Friday March 19th, 1999 7:18 PM

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Daniel, It (CSS2) was at least in the planning stages (if not a recommendation already [does anything ever really get beyond recommendation?]) when IE4 was released....

#32 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by Julian Missig <x-virge@shafe.com>

Friday March 19th, 1999 9:30 PM

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I think it's sad that Microsoft is biting the bullet again and supporting some form of a stylesheet language that is far from an official recommendation (AGAIN). I was looking so forward to using XSL and XML in version 5 browsers, hoping that Microsoft would just choose not to support XSL until it comes out, but my hopes failed. As <http://www.webstandards.org/ie5.txt> WaSP and many others have reported, Microsoft uses their own version of XSL and chooses it over CSS2, which is an actual recommendation! This means that future releases of IE5.x will probably have to support the MS-XSL or else many pages will be broken. This could cause a LOT of people to believe that Netscape doesn't support standards when Netscape5 is released because their XML/XSL pages won't work.

At least Netscape5 will supposedly support XSL properly... if that will be any help.

#33 CSS2 Dates

by jawbone <jlp@ematic.com>

Friday March 19th, 1999 9:47 PM

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In regards to IE4 and CSS2:

IE 4 was released on Sept. 30, 1997. The earliest working draft of CSS2 currently on the W3C's site is dated Nov. 7, 1997. So Daniel Hill does have a point: Microsoft did jump the gun on :hover by a considerable amount (the final recommendation on CSS2 is dated May 12, 1998), since it could have been removed from the CSS2 spec at any time between when IE 4 was released and the final CSS2 spec was published.

#34 Version 3 Browsers WHAT?

by Caustic <jdub@student.usyd.edu.au>

Friday March 19th, 1999 9:50 PM

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"Most people still use the 3.0 series of the browsers."

Before I was running a commercial internet site, I would have said the same thing! This view implies that most users don't think to download new versions of software, or it's all to hard. I must admit, I thought most "consumers" didn't know enough about computers to bother.

However, my stats on the site show that the fourth generation of browsers are the most common... Funnily enough, the ratios between NS3/NS4 and IE3/IE4 are quite different: There are more Netscape users using NS4 (as opposed to NS3) than there are IE users using IE4 (as opposed to IE3).

Does this mean Netscape users are smarter than Microsoft users? Perhaps. I'm willing to say that most Microsoft users are using it because that's all they know about (or have easy access to). All the more reason for regulating the software industry.

#35 Developers?

by Peter Kovacs <kovacsp@egr.uri.edu>

Friday March 19th, 1999 11:24 PM

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I'm not sure I quite follow the "capture the developers" argument that a few people are touting. For a traditional web project, you have to cater to everybody (or as many people as you can) by cutting people out you risk losing customers. If somebody *requires* me to be using IE5 to use their site, so I can use some funky DOM stuff that they can do real easy in InterDev, then I'm going to go someplace else.

It's the users that are more important. Capture the lion's share of the market, and developers will come to you. It's simply a matter of common sense!

#36 Minor mistake in above date

by jawbone <jlp@ematic.com>

Friday March 19th, 1999 11:50 PM

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That first working draft of CSS2 I mentioned above was released Nov. 4, 1997, not Nov. 7, 1997. And incidentally, :HOVER is not in that draft.

#37 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by Mark Wilson <mark_tracey@xtra.co.nz>

Saturday March 20th, 1999 1:18 AM

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Capturing the developers is CRUCIAL to the long term success of Mozilla/NS. Without the developers, nothing long term can happen.

Visual basic is there because of the ease of use and components. Linux is there because of developers. Mozilla is here because of developers. BUT what program make the web pages out there for the mass market? Interdev and Frontpage. Unless Composer unseats those two, the proprietry extensions that they offer will become a wa of life and then a norm and then a standard.

This talk of adding in frames for Composer is setting the sights so ridiculously low that any work done to achieve it is simply wasted work. No, what is needed is Aurora thinking, DOM-Javascript thinking, OSS extensibility, making web pages into object which are easily manipulated from outside. Making server extensions to web servers (the MS Frontpage extensions are available on UNIX, NT and others...) to increase the tight fit of Mozilla/NS and the Composer and the web servers. Make Composer the FIRST choice.

I have been thinking about the XPFE and its sexy crosss-platformness. And you know what I realised? After being so excited I realised that this is a C world you all are living in. It's like being racist or sexist. I as a VB developer (the largest group and the group which churns out the most work, because we reuse objects and components and its just do damn easy to use) we are sidelined. Mozilla's good ideas are aimed squarely a a minority developer market if you count the numbers out there. It 3 or 4 to 1 in favour of the VBers.

Regardless of how you feel about that, here is the point. Unless you win the MASS of developers over... pages will be developed in the competitiors editor targetting the competitors browser. Frequently I browse different sites with the different browsers, just because I MUST see the site in its full glory (for example training sites)

#38 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by Mark Wilson <mark_tracey@xtra.co.nz>

Saturday March 20th, 1999 1:27 AM

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Capturing the developers is CRUCIAL to the long term success of Mozilla/NS. Without the developers, nothing long term can happen.

Visual basic is there because of the ease of use and components. Linux is there because of developers. Mozilla is here because of developers. BUT what program make the web pages out there for the mass market? Interdev and Frontpage. Unless Composer unseats those two, the proprietry extensions that they offer will become a wa of life and then a norm and then a standard.

This talk of adding in frames for Composer is setting the sights so ridiculously low that any work done to achieve it is simply wasted work. No, what is needed is Aurora thinking, DOM-Javascript thinking, OSS extensibility, making web pages into object which are easily manipulated from outside. Making server extensions to web servers (the MS Frontpage extensions are available on UNIX, NT and others...) to increase the tight fit of Mozilla/NS and the Composer and the web servers. Make Composer the FIRST choice.

I have been thinking about the XPFE and its sexy crosss-platformness. And you know what I realised? After being so excited I realised that this is a C world you all are living in. It's like being racist or sexist. I as a VB developer (the largest group and the group which churns out the most work, because we reuse objects and components and its just do damn easy to use) we are sidelined. Mozilla's good ideas are aimed squarely a a minority developer market if you count the numbers out there. It 3 or 4 to 1 in favour of the VBers.

Regardless of how you feel about that, here is the point. Unless you win the MASS of developers over... pages will be developed in the competitiors editor targetting the competitors browser. Frequently I browse different sites with the different browsers, just because I MUST see the site in its full glory (for example training sites)

#39 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by zontar

Saturday March 20th, 1999 7:05 AM

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Gosh, Mark, I can cross-post, too:

VB is not cross-platform.

Server extensions suck.

BTW, if VB is such a hot dev platform, then why did the guy who wrote the "bible" on it do a sudden about-face, refuse to update his book, and renounce it?

#40 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by Popples

Saturday March 20th, 1999 8:42 AM

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Why has IE5 created such a rage amongst NS and mozilla supporters?

I can only imagine it is because IE5 is out now, and mozilla could be some time away. Even when NS5 does surface, Microsoft will have had plenty time to update IE5.

Open source projects don't work, they are rarely finished on time, and to base a commerical application on an open source project is lunacy.

I'm the last person to defend Microsoft, I use Voyager on AmigaOS, so I don't really care what goes on in the UNIX and Windows worlds anyway.

#41 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by Popples

Saturday March 20th, 1999 8:43 AM

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Why has IE5 created such a rage amongst NS and mozilla supporters?

I can only imagine it is because IE5 is out now, and mozilla could be some time away. Even when NS5 does surface, Microsoft will have had plenty time to update IE5.

Open source projects don't work, they are rarely finished on time, and to base a commerical application on an open source project is lunacy.

I'm the last person to defend Microsoft, I use Voyager on AmigaOS, so I don't really care what goes on in the UNIX and Windows worlds anyway.

#42 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by Liam Quinn

Saturday March 20th, 1999 1:36 PM

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If Open Source projects "don't work", please explain why Apache is by far the most popular Web server on the planet, with more users than the servers of Microsoft and Netscape combined.

#43 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by Kovu <Kovu401@netscape.net>

Saturday March 20th, 1999 3:40 PM

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Okay, VB is programming for Windows, period. If you think that's the wave of the future, that' your problem. Once "write once run anywhere" becomes a reality, no one in their right minds will program in a language that will only work on one lousy OS. MS wants a MS future, with MS products, MS support, MS bugs--thanks, I'll pass.

#44 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by Popples

Saturday March 20th, 1999 5:51 PM

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Apache is one of the few that has succeeded. Open source is for you unix people, like it or not, 98% of Windows users can't program, 98% of Linux users CAN program. That is why open source works on Unix.

Also, programs are never finished o n time. Sure, when they do come out they are very good, but it just is not suitable for commerical programs. Netscape is giving Microsoft a very large lead in time, they will regret it.

#45 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by Kovu <Kovu401@netscape.net>

Saturday March 20th, 1999 6:32 PM

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you're always assuming anyone gives a rat's ass about IE5. The sad thing is, those same dumb Windows users don't know much or care about new versions of their browser, they use it because it came with their system. Just because MS says IE is all that doesn't mean it is. IE5 is really not much different from IE4, and I seriously doubt you're going to get many NS users to convert just because they threw in a radio bar and their own version of What's Related. Likely the only people who will upgrade to IE5 are those that have IE4. So what? MS will be the one regretting once NS 5.0 comes out and IE 5 sucks ass in comparison.

#46 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by _Dan

Saturday March 20th, 1999 6:48 PM

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"Netscape is giving Microsoft a very large lead in time, they will regret it."

Just a quick question... If time is such a big issue then why didn't Microsoft regret their choice to release IE4 almost 6 months later the Navigator 4.x???

#47 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by Kovu <Kovu401@netscape.net>

Saturday March 20th, 1999 7:35 PM

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THANK you.

#48 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by Patrick <PAF@atomic-eggs.com>

Saturday March 20th, 1999 11:29 PM

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Please don't tell us about implematation of HTML 4. Please, noone from Mozilla!!!

What you are only able to do is to put every month another underversion of your 4-Version which brings no changes!

So, please, keep working for a better browser before writing such stuff!

#49 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by Kovu <Kovu401@netscape.net>

Saturday March 20th, 1999 11:56 PM

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Uh, no changes? How about the security fixes? NS 4.51 is probably the most secure browser on the planet, and while you may not give a rat's ass, I do. Besides, the people that work on Mozilla and the people that work on bugfixing and testing are almost certainly different people.

#50 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by Mark Wilson

Sunday March 21st, 1999 12:53 AM

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OSS is cool, it works and it is the way the truth and the life (artistic license).

BUT OSS without a good business focus is goingt o deliver the wrong product on time, on buget and on spec. But did you note the 'wrong product' part? The emphasis on the business vision is crucial and I re-iterate that the developers out there must be won over.

Just in case you didnt read my other post, here is an important two stanzas:

</importantstanza>You can put all you want into XML compliance. But at the end of the day, MS ships an XML IDE and guess what? Your compliance means diddly squat becoz you don't have an IDE which makes use of it, but they do and it make XML apps which are compliant to THEIR vision.

So, what are you giving developers so they will build to YOUR vision?<importantstanza/>

#51 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by Kovu <Kovu401@netscape.net>

Sunday March 21st, 1999 3:10 AM

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All MS proprietary crap in IE5 means is that noone is going to use those extensions except MS because doing so would be programming for only half a market, and that is stupid. MS themselves will use it for their sites and a few MS drone companies may use it because they have exclusive agreements to. Anyone who d/led IE5 will be able to see it on those sites, but that's it. Face it, the overwhelming percentage of browsers out there is IE3, IE4, NS3, and NS4. If you really think all four of these groups, and the companies that program their websites to be compatible for them, are going to jump out and get (or program ONLY for) IE5 because it has a stupid radio bar (an attempt to kill Realaudio, because Billy got pissed at their CEO) and will hold your credit card information if you're stupid enough to put it in, and, oh yeah, the few MS sites that use their dead-end proprietary extensions, you're wrong.

#52 SUN/AOL DEAL

by Kovu <Kovu401@netscape.net>

Sunday March 21st, 1999 3:38 AM

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"The filing repeats AOL's intention to maintain Microsoft's Internet Explorer in its position as AOL's preferred browser. But Netscape's Navigator will remain under state-of-the-art development, perhaps giving AOL additional clout in dealing with Microsoft. Sun and AOL will support the latest Java software, currently Java 2, to the jointly developed browsers." Looking further ahead, AOL and Sun intend to develop an integrated, "turnkey" e-commerce system relying on Netscape software."

<http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,32228,00.html>

By the way, those are paragraphs, not stanzas. I'd hardly call that poetry.

#53 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by Kovu <Kovu401@netscape.net>

Sunday March 21st, 1999 4:47 AM

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:) peace Long live Moz (and Amiga!)

#54 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by Michael Ott <michaeljamesott@hotmail.com>

Sunday March 21st, 1999 10:14 PM

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Give MS a little credit for IE 5. I, like many of you, agree that it really should be IE 4.3 or so, but I am very impressed that MS has for once released a product that has a smaller memory footprint, is smaller on disk, and runs faster. Other than that, they've hardly touched 4.0. Personally, hats off to them for just improving the product and not further bloating it.

#55 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by Kovu <Kovu401@netscape.net>

Sunday March 21st, 1999 11:32 PM

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I have a hard time giving MS credit for, oh, anything after reading all of the trial evidence. They have some good programmers but they are misused by the several evil assholes who run the show. So here, yes, the programmers did a good job on IE "5". That doesn't mean MS isn't an evil cancerous entity that needs to be dealt severely with. I'm looking forward to that.

#56 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by Ben G.

Monday March 22nd, 1999 6:16 AM

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The installation wizard for IE5 claims the minimal download is something like 6.9Mb (no mention on how big it is installed). There's no denying its popular, you could download IE5b2 any day of the week a month ago, but now all the download servers seem to be jammed except for late at night. I use IE as my default in Windows 95 because Visual Studio (well, I think it was VStudio) seems to have hobbled Netscape and made it load as fast as a crippled pig, and as more pages use complicated tables, I'm finding Netscape 4.5 a little slow. However since I use linux about 50% of the time now, I use 4.07 quite a bit. (The Linux version, in my experience is *much* faster than the windows version, at least in performing disk tasks like loading)

As for VB, I've tried it, and liked it as much as WYSIWYG web tools like Dreamweaver and M$' awful frontpage. Too limiting, too frustrating, and only really useful for a quick fix on Windows boxes. C/C++ are portable languages, which are also a lot more elegant, IMO.

#57 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by zontar

Monday March 22nd, 1999 6:34 AM

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PLEASE don't mention Dreamweaver and FrontPage together as though they somehow had something in common! Dreamweaver is a visual authoring tool that produces clean cross-browser code and has an effective and intuitive interface -- FrontPage is a piece of bloated, proprietary crap.

Thank you.

BTW, I also use a text editor. Dreamweaver respects that, and I thus respect DW in turn. :-)

#58 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by Mark Wilson

Monday March 22nd, 1999 5:28 PM

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"By the way, those are paragraphs, not stanzas. I'd hardly call that poetry."

Paragraphs and stanzas are the same thing, and secondly I didn't say poetic licence,I said artistic license. That is a different thing. Don't make this personal. Your tone is not welcome on an open page on the net. I assert my right to freedom of speech and I expect you to honour it and I want you to be professional and objective.

Your post about the trial is VERY justified and reasonable - but this discussion is NOT about the trial and it is NOT about right and wrong. I am NOT discussing morality. I am discussing technology.

I am saying that you have no idea what Visual Interdev can do for web developers. You keep on an on about how only IE users can make use of the extensions. If only you could open your mind and suck in your pride and have a look at Visual Interdev - you would see that the extensions and the ease of use and the wizards... and... and... result in pages which can be viewed in both (albeit better in IE when it comes to DHTML)

And your contention that only a tiny minority use the latest browsers is patently wrong. Before sprouting off, check your facts. I have checked mine. Here they are: where are yours?

I imagine this will come as a shock to you: <http://www.cc.gatech.edu/gvu/user_surveys/> more specifically: <http://www.cc.gatech.edu/…hs/graphs.html#technology> MY OPINION: users are not the dull out of date people you think they are (is based on) 56.8 of users think they are using the latest browser, 3% are using beta browsers. MY OPINION: IE on the desktop will win the users over (is based on) 63% of users NEVER switch to another browser. 22% have switched once. MY OPINION: Third party developers or company bundles to the mass market and software bundles such as Visual Studio is the primary way to get your browser out there (is based on) 64.6 of the browsers out there were bundled with other software MY OPINION: You should focus on what the user wants and NOT ONLY on standards - thats not what users want nescessarily (is based on) 10.1 of users chose their browser fro reputation, the rest had it bundled (7%) or it was already available (7%) of features (17%) or easiest (14%) MY OPINION: Win over the windows developers by building windows components (is based partly on) 44.3 of all surfers use Windows 95 browsers 17.9 use Windows 98 browsers 21% use Mac browsers that leaves 18% which may be afected by your vastly superior cross-platform plans (which amusingly dont even inlude Java or Javazilla)

8.3 of all intranets operate on MS technologies, this is twice that of NS ones! Mysteriously 18.9 ran intranets from 'OTHER' vendors??

Incredibly, only 23.7 of webs are hosted on NT boxes. This means that you can still capture these developers without having to fight MS, but I still suggest you look at Interdev and learn from it. In fact, look at the business model of MS and learn from it.

Remember, this is not a moral issue and it has nothing to do with the court case. it has everything to do with competing successfully and not losing more market share than NS already has!

#59 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by Kovu <Kovu401@netscape.net>

Monday March 22nd, 1999 8:08 PM

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You make good points Mark. I sincerely hope, and have faith, that AOL has the clout and marketing finesse to turn NSs slump around.

#60 Re:IE5 Released - Not HTML4, CSS1 or XML Compliant

by bent

Friday March 26th, 1999 10:38 AM

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I will say this - at least IE5.0 handles XML errors correctly, and has a reasonably high-level of validity checking. Unlike Mozilla, unfortunately, which doesn't implement validity.