Minutes of the mozilla.org Staff Meeting of Monday 20th October 2003
Sunday November 2nd, 2003
The minutes of the mozilla.org staff meeting of Monday 20th October 2003 are now online. Issues discussed include facilities, FTP, CD sales, website traffic and the website beta.
>> Investigate peer to peer bit torrent with pre-release to this network. Great news!
Seems like common sense to offer p2p download links. If there'd be a ed2k link or torrent link (why not both?) on the homepage I'd try those first. It just seems like a waste of money and resources to only offer http/ftp downloads.
Would it be possible see some snapshots of some of the mozilla.org facilities? Try to include the new olympic size swimming pool and gymnasium if you can ;)
I hope they're looking at improving the server response time the nightly builds are on. It's horrible right now, and I'll bet there are a bunch of people that have decided not to DL Firebird because they got tired of waiting for even the Save As dialog.
Do they just need more servers for that, or is that a matter of buying more bandwidth?
Actually, it's the servers all the builds are on. Milestones are as bad as nightlies.
Is the Netscape server part of the new FTP mirror network, or is it just being updated for consistency reasons?
Okay, thanks for that.
However, the problem still remains: Joe Random Surfer cannot find this server location, so he's still using the slow servers linked to by the front page. Either change the link or make the connection better.
It's not part of the new FTP mirror network, and I shouldn't imagine it's being updated for any reason other than nobody has got around to shutting it down yet.
If anything, having its existance publicised is likely to make it disappear faster...
#5 Status of GRE?
Monday November 3rd, 2003 8:38 AM
Is there any place (newsgroup) I could follow and discuss the development of the GRE?
If the only place is bugzilla (which would be unfortunate), could you tell me a good sort criteria (or even a link)?
It seems that there is a great need to have a GRE-system in place that would allow all mozilla-based standalone applications (firebird, Thunderbird, Sunbird, Editor, ..., Lotus Notes, GameSpy,...?) to access one or only a few GRE's.
My main reason is that I want development of the Calendar and Editor to focus more on the standalone apps (as opposed to XPI hook-ins to the other apps).
Also, I would like to suggest that the *profile names* start being changed to what the applications will be called:
- MozillaBrowser - MozillamailNews - MozillaEditor - MozillaCalendar - MozillaIRC
There needs to be coherency, recognizability (for ease-of-hacking) and brand-recognition (yes, even here in the profile name!)
Well the GRE - Core and Installer: GRE components in bugzilla are returned by the query:
I'm not sure if it's comprehensive or not.
However, you should probably know that the Firebird people have no intention of using the GRE in the foreseeable future:
I would try complaining about this on the firebird forums (the stated location for feedback), or on the newsgroups. However, I've become so convinced that any arguments as to why the GRE is needed will be willfully ignored, that I can't motivate myself to take any action.
I think there's some sort of conflict of interest. Ben wants what is best for Firebird which is very understandable, however, what mozilla.org should be aiming for is to have a suite of standalone applications that share as much as possible in the way of libraries, reducing footprint, etc
Also fixes like bug 212222 mean that apps in the GRE can share default preferences, so e.g. a system administrator can set up the GRE to have the company proxy settings and all GRE apps will inherit this by default. Apps that embed IE get its settings by default and this sort of sharing is very useful.
Why should you have to set up things like proxies for each single *bird application? You don't have to set up proxt settings in Outlook if you've got them set up in IE. There's also work going on to convert IE settings into Mozilla profiles, this will be very useful for people migrating from IE
But I don't even understand why it's best for Firebird. The reason stated for not wanting GRE is that the startup time is slower than a statically linked build. That's probably true. In fact, from what little computer science I understand, a statically linked build will *always* be faster to load, since less happens during startup. So they can continue using this excuse forever. However the conclusion that that total statup time is minimised by not using GRE seems to rest on the assumption that only one app is being started. If different apps can share in-memory GRE instances, it strongly suggests that launching subsequent apps will be much faster if the GRE is already loaded - so if you launch thunderbird when the computer starts and then firebird later on, the combined startup time may well be less with the GRE than without, even if starting just thunderbird is slower.
Of course I might be wrong about this. But I'm not sure that startup time is such an important metric that it outweighs all the other advantages of GRE.
I haven't seen much sign of big stuff happening with GRE. I think things are taking small steps in the right direction (unforking Firebird/Thunderbird stuff, and making a few changes to Firebird/Thunderbird to move them towards having a separate GRE). For the moment, Bugzilla probably is the place, but that would be for individual little fixes (and for following, not discussing, unless you're writing the code) rather than the kind of discussion you're after.
On the profile names - I think the eventual goal is for the different apps to be able to share profiles, and I don't think the branding thing has been decided once and for all yet, so probably a bit early to decide on those.
As and when a new roadmap document appears, it will hopefully help to give some more clarity on some of this stuff, and discussion can follow...
Lotes Notes sues Mozilla? Err no. And never heard of GameSpy using it as well.
#10 Status of GRE?
Monday November 3rd, 2003 11:39 AM
> On the profile names - I think the eventual goal is for > the different apps to be able to share profiles
That's the first I've heard of this. Do you have a linkable source? Has there been any discussion of the pro's/con's?
I can think of very little benfit to this approach and much source of confusion ("your calendar files are in your composer profile" huh?) and "difficulties" ("mailnews crashed so your bookmarks are gone"). :(
Try searching bugzilla, the first link I found: <http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=178806>
Personally I think it's a good idea if it's implemented correctly. Being able to try any new gecko based browser and have the option for it to *safely* share profiles with another gecko based browser so that you you have easy access to your bookmarks, etc is a good idea. Note, how I said option, it might be best to be the default option, it might not be, however, an option it needs to be.
Browsers that embed IE can automatically pick up settings (some may be essential like proxy settings), cookies, bookmarks, etc, so why shouldn't this option be available to those that embed Gecko
#25 Re: Re: Status of GRE?
Tuesday November 4th, 2003 11:25 AM
Wouldn't registry setting telling the other apps e.g. where the bookmarks file is be much better?
Separate apps should use separate settings!
What if app-X uses the profile of app-Y, but the user only wants to install app-Y and not app-X? It is probably possible to then have app-X create the profile of (the non-existant) app-Y, but *why*? A separate profile with interconnection via registry seems much more clear and, most of all, correct.
It seems to me that the Mac is being quite neglected in Mozilla as of late. Camino is all but dead. Mike Pinkerton seems to be an incredibly busy man, and there don't seem to be many others working on it. In addition to this, Firebird does not fit in nicely with OS X at this time.
I hope that OS X development is revived in Mozilla.
P.S. I am in no way saying that people aren't trying hard and I can understand the difficult development. I suppose I'm just lamenting the lack of progress without providing a solution ;-).
It seems understandable with Mac pushing Safari use. It is hard to get people excited about creating a standards complient non-IE browser and using it from an open-source group when Apple has created a competing product. This competing product is quite good and seems to not need a replacement. While I am not advocating dropping support altogether, I find it understandable that Mozilla will not make much inroads on OSX any time soon.
Have you tried firebird 0.7.1 ? With Ben Goodger having switched to mac, expect the best for firebird OSX.
#27 Re: Re: The Forgotten Mac
Tuesday November 4th, 2003 2:49 PM
I didn't know he switched to Mac. That's interesting. I hope we see some interface improvements.
#30 Re: Re: Re: The Forgotten Mac
Wednesday November 5th, 2003 1:54 PM
Isn't already Chimera available for Mac?
Read pinkertons weblog: