MozillaZine

New Music, and IE News

Monday February 22nd, 1999

More music to code by this week - just click the link at right. Also, news that Microsoft has started its "Countdown to Internet Explorer 5". No news on their site regarding IE5 standards compliance; curiously, that's the one enhancement that they really don't address. Will they have a complete CSS1 implementation? My guess: Microsoft is going to play up UI enhancements, downplay standards compliance (because they won't be 100% compliant even with CSS1). When confronted regarding compliance, they will, with spin a dervish would envy, manage to place the blame squarely on Netscape for *IE* not being CSS1 compliant. If you recall, they did just that only four months ago.


#1 Re:New Music, and IE News

by Tekhir

Tuesday February 23rd, 1999 12:16 AM

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since Microsoft patented CSS you think they would support all of it. Didn't MS also mention that they wouldn't support 100% CSS1 because it would break pages. I read the ZDNet review of IE5, what THEY call the perfect browser. Full install takes a 100MB, thats way way too big. Mozilla is 1-2% of that.

Here's a quote "Netscape promises its 5.0 browser will include a faster rendering engine that supports the latest Web standards. We'll see."

It's like they never even tried out one of the nightly builds. Oh well enough of my ranting, we'll see them change their tune when a full working Mozilla and then Netscape 5 come out.

#2 Re:New Music, and IE News

by Kosh

Tuesday February 23rd, 1999 5:37 AM

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The question is when will there be a full working Mozilla, cause I'm not seeing any beta and from what I understand there won't be any beta soon. By getting their browser out first Microsoft will have a big advantage .

#3 Re:New Music, and IE News

by Nate

Tuesday February 23rd, 1999 9:01 AM

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yeah, when will we see a beta, the nightly builds are somewhat sporradic as far as the stability, and to a curoius user (not a coder) it isnt even obvious what to do with the thing when it is dl'd and extracted. till a stable beta is released that installs like normal software, we non-coders are stuck running bloatware

#4 Re:New Music, and IE News

by SomeSmartAss

Tuesday February 23rd, 1999 9:04 AM

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Was Just Reading the ZD-Net Tripe....

I find it interesting that they're compairing a beta of IE's next FULL version release with an incrimental upgrade version of Netscape (hense the nuber greater than 0 to the right of th period) and then blasting Netscape for not adding enough changes and new features.

And how come, if Netscape changing IE's default home page is a "dirty trick", why is completely replacing half of the Windows front end "a big improvement"

#5 Re:New Music, and IE News

by `alpha

Tuesday February 23rd, 1999 9:15 AM

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Just remember to never trust an MS poll again. Remember in the trial there is hard evidence that Gates ordered a survey be taken and then told what the results should be.

#6 Re:New Music, and IE News

by Jim Lee

Tuesday February 23rd, 1999 10:06 AM

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Kosh - Even though MS gets its browser out first, I don't think it will have that dramatic of an impact since IE will be bundled with NT and 98 anyway. Developers know that Navigator is coming out and that it is a dramatic improvement over the old code (to say the least), and I think they're giong to love its standards-compliance.

It will be by pure brute marketing strength and power that MS can and will push IE forward. Not to say that IE 5 won't be a good browser, but 100 MB is just too much code bloat.

Funny thing about that ZDNet article - a link for it is found on the MS homepage. But I don't think people will pay too much attention to the article, as it was poorly researched and written. I'd like to see it get into the New York Times. It was naturally skewed to conveniently highlight one competitor's product over another.

So, supposing that IE actually is a Windows upgrade, when was the last time we did not have to pay for an OS upgrade (excluding Linux)? How is it that we still pay $90 or however much for another upgrade of Windows? The marketing contradictions astound me. I have to admit though, the marketing team at MS should be given gold medals for the job they've done.

Just a few thoughts...

#7 Funny Survey!

by -=Yusuf=- <ssym@hippo.ru.ac.za>

Tuesday February 23rd, 1999 12:18 PM

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I followed that link on the IE homepage that led to the MS survey. They came up with some interesting results. Firstly they registered over 600,000 downloads, but apparently only 1,200 of these enthusiastic beta-testers decided to submit their opinion about IE. Is anyone else thinking that MS went through the survey results with a fine-tooth comb, removing "inconvenient" opinions from however many of the 598,800 other people who voted?

And then of course there's this testimonial which is so pat and slick that this guy *must* have been paid to say it:

"I've enjoyed taking advantage of the IntelliSense functionality in Office for years," said Douglas Rohm, a network administrator in the software development industry. "I'm pleased that Microsoft has brought this technology to the browser to make complex tasks easier and common tasks faster. My time online now is more productive, allowing me to reap the full benefits of the Web."

"Reap the full benefits of the Web"?? A MS phrase if there ever was one. I wonder what Mr Rohm's bank account is like about now......

#8 Re: New Music, and IE News

by Charles Peyton Taylor <cpt@mbay.net>

Tuesday February 23rd, 1999 3:28 PM

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I hate to defend MS, but they do (or did) have a better record of supporting standards than Netscape, who didn't support CSS until NS 4, and then tried to wrap that up into Java-Script. Also, the LAYER tag was a really bad idea, as was BLINK. And there were all sorts of truly useful things that were forgotten (like using LINK for things other than stylesheets (check out the last version of NCSA Mosaic) or FN (footnotes).) In fact, if, back in the early days of NCSA Mosaic, the IMG tag had been made into a container tag (as was suggested by TBL on the mailing lists) life would have been much, much sweeter. And no, it wasn't that the guys at CERN didn't want graphics, it was that they wanted graphics done in a graceful, extendable way, kinda like OBJECT is done now. If we *truly* want standards compliance, we can't be cheerleaders and just look the other way when our favorite company doesn't play by the rules. We have to hold everyone to the same standards.

#9 Better standards compliance?

by mozineAdmin

Tuesday February 23rd, 1999 5:45 PM

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Let's not talk about "better" standards support, shall we? There's not *one* browser out there with 100% CSS1 compliance, and I'm sorry, but 80% is not *better* by any stretch of the imagination. It's only, at best, incomplete. And if some of that 80% is buggy (like it is in both IE4 and Nav4), then it's *useless* as well.

Maybe the W3C should create a compliant reference implementation before asking others to do the work of ferreting out all the vagaries and inconsistencies of the specs. That way people could put the blame for non-compliance on the W3C, instead of the companies that have to put up the money and time to solve the problems that the W3C couldn't address on their own.

#10 Re:New Music, and IE News

by zulaica <zulaica@excite.com>

Tuesday February 23rd, 1999 6:08 PM

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standards-compliance is what it's all about. i'm a free-lance web designer and i *hate* the way the standards are hardly implemented. i just downloaded the latest gecko and was beyond pleased, however. i don't know diddly about programming, but being someone who designs for the web, i need to know how to make the designs look right before the public can get their hands on a full version.

gecko will win the public back for mozilla/netscape. opera has done well with their browser, but no one will want to pay $35 for a browser that is standards-compliant when they can get it for free from netscape.

and beyond all this, ms spend too much focus on outlook express than on their browser.

#11 IE 5's CSS2 implementation isn't bad.

by Jeff Paulsen <jeff.paulsen@poorman-douglas.com>

Tuesday February 23rd, 1999 7:10 PM

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Really, it's actually pretty close in most of what I've thrown at it. The nightly mozilla builds have been pretty poor in terms of supporting some fairly common CSS2 selectors & attributes. look at <http://www.teamaware.com/jeff/> in IE5 and any of the nightlys to see what I mean. The biggest fault IE5 has is that it appears to invent some bogus padding values if you specify width on block elements, or something like that -- Mozilla actively ignores {position: absolute}.

#12 Re:New Music, and IE News

by zontar

Tuesday February 23rd, 1999 7:45 PM

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hmmm... I can download Gecko in 20 minutes or less and have almost perfect compliance with W3C standards, or I can spend a whole night getting IE5 and have half-assed compliance, the necessity of reinstalling half my other apps, and tons of marketing-inspired fluff. Maybe I'll just go ahead and shuck out $6.95 for the CD.

BTW, in case anybody thinks I actually WANT this beast: I develop sites, so I pretty much have to have it, so can be sure they're cross-browser -- 'scuse me, I really meant to say "backwards compatible."

Notice how the ZDNet piece barely mentions Mozilla? Oh, well, it's not like anybody ever accused THAT rag of being impartial...

#13 Re: New Music, and IE News

by Beanie

Tuesday February 23rd, 1999 7:57 PM

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AOL own all this lovely code that you have written.

#14 Beanie Baby

by zontar

Tuesday February 23rd, 1999 11:52 PM

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FUD. FUD. FUD.

Which should have gone in the TalkBack for the NPL story, anyway.

Which you obviously never heard of.

#15 Re: New Music, and IE News

by Joe Linux <PRED@Microsoft.com>

Wednesday February 24th, 1999 12:22 AM

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Who cares ? I am never going to use IE 5, so I don't care if it is 100 or 1000 M. All I want to know is how Mozilla is going and when will it be finished.

#16 Re:New Music, and IE News

by spectator5 <wazoo@somewhere.com>

Wednesday February 24th, 1999 12:46 AM

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Well, I'm sure there are those of us are concerned about the Mozilla release date (I know I am), but I think it makes more sense to comment about it under the *right* TalkBack feature.

#17 Re:New Music, and IE News

by KiwiGuy

Wednesday February 24th, 1999 2:31 AM

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I've downloaded several of the nightly Mozilla builds and been very impressed - good progress. M$ will be running scared of Mozilla - developed by the same process (open-source) that gave us Perl, Python and other such gems. M$ have nothing that comes remotely close .... :-) . The final version of Mozilla will make a certain other browser look like an Edsel ..... :-)

#18 Re: Music To Code By

by JT <jim.thompson@pobox.com>

Wednesday February 24th, 1999 7:03 AM

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Everything But The Girl: Idlewild Sex Pistols: Never Mind the Bollocks... Better Than Ezra: Deluxe

#19 Re:New Music, and IE News

by arielb

Wednesday February 24th, 1999 12:15 PM

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100 megs for a full install? I have to see this for myself...no maybe I won't...I remember earlier that MS claimed IE5 will be the smallest browser they've ever made. Anyway, NS4 was hurt because it came out before IE4 so I don't understand why NS5 will be hurt if IE5 comes first. 100 megs...sheesh! Who would want to dload that?

#20 Re:New Music, and IE News

by Tekhir

Wednesday February 24th, 1999 9:47 PM

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Well, 100 Mbs is for everything I think Ms mention you can download only certian pieces which would make it smalle, but I think its still bull.

Has anyone made a layer with in a layer within a layer. I did this just to see some neat features of css. It took me a while to get it to look right in NS and it took even long to make it look right in IE. This is NS 4 and IE 4 and the page was all correct in terms of standards yet IE had to be helped along. Until I tried this I always thought IE had better and more support of css, now I know this isn't the case.

#21 Re:New Music, and IE News

by Alex Lubarov <alex@mvsn.com>

Thursday February 25th, 1999 2:21 PM

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Wake up guys - TIME TO MARKET. Microsoft has built a multibillion dollar empire by marketing at best average products and obliterating the independents with far superior products. If Mozilla is not ready soon after MS IE 5.0 rollout - you can brag about superior standards support forever and a day there will be nobody to listen.

#22 Re:New Music, and IE News

by Alex Lubarov <alex@mvsn.com>

Thursday February 25th, 1999 2:21 PM

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Wake up guys - TIME TO MARKET. Microsoft has built a multibillion dollar empire by marketing at best average products and obliterating the independents with far superior products. If Mozilla is not ready soon after MS IE 5.0 rollout - you can brag about superior standards support forever and a day there will be nobody to listen.

#23 Re: Absurd anti-MS claims

by E. J. Freed

Thursday February 25th, 1999 3:56 PM

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I fear the concept of a corporation misrepresenting reality about as much as I fear individuals misrepresenting reality. If you want to 'win' against a superior force, then start out by being rigorously honest about the strenghts of your enemy and the weaknesses of your allies.

#24 Re:New Music, and IE News

by pepper (forgot password)

Friday February 26th, 1999 4:06 PM

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Do you people learn nothing from history? Microsoft can't be beaten by playing by their rules. The Open Source movement is the right way. And yes, IE still doesn't run in Linux ant that is enough for me.

#25 Mozilla, MSIE and CSS

by Guy Smiley <smiley@seds.org>

Monday March 1st, 1999 2:34 PM

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My main point is, who cares if IE5 is 100% or 99% compliant with CSS1. Netscape's poor CSS support is still the limiting factor for us, the web page developers. Until Mozilla builds robust market share, IE's lack of compliance is a side issue. While I'm impressed at the speed and capability of the Mozilla builds I've tried, it still has a ways to go for CSS rendering and DHTML JavaScript in particular. IE5 works fantastically well now (in beta), and renders my CSS pages beautifully. In the real world [wide web], developers can't use those extra 1% of CSS features until Netscape 4.X has been flushed down where it belongs.