MozillaZine

Firebird Poll Ignites Flames of Passion

Wednesday April 23rd, 2003

The question posed by our last poll was intended to get feedback on 'Firebird', the new name for Phoenix. We got it in buckets. A massive 20,576 people voted — that's over ten times as many as for the new Roadmap poll. The Firebird name is a sensitive issue and we strongly believe that certain parties made concerted efforts to fix the contest. Bearing that in mind, the results of the poll apparently suggest that 30% of voters love the new name, 6% like it, 4% are neutral towards it, 4% don't like it and 12% hate it. 29% of the votes cast were by people who think that mozilla.org should not have picked the same name as the Firebird database and 12% believe that the Mozilla suite should be renamed to Winnebago.

Our next poll will hopefully be less controversial. Tuesday marked the tenth anniversary of NCSA Mosaic, the revolutionary browser that is frequently credited with turbo-charging the growth of the Web. We want to know when you think the best period of post-Mosaic browser innovation took place. Was it immediately after the release of Mosaic, during which a crop of new graphical browsers hit the streets? Was it during in the Browser Wars, when Netscape and Microsoft battled for dominance of the Web? Maybe you think that we're currently in a browser innovation renaissance, with established companies like Apple re-entering the browser market. Let us know what you think and check the up-to-the-second results to follow the poll's progress.


#1 About FB

by prometeo

Wednesday April 23rd, 2003 10:55 PM

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I don't know if someone has "fixed" the poll, but I can tell you something: I am an old mozilla addict (I think I've installed all the versions from M09) and I have voted (once, even if my ADSL connection is dynamic) that mozilla.org should not have picked the same name as the Firebird database. I don't care about legal advice, picking the name was plainly wrong and putting TM all other the place isn't a good sign. BTW, mozilla.org introduced a new splash screen since the old one was using a Dino which is a TM of NS (IIRC, and the hope that the splash screen is going away soon): so, for God sake, when is mozilla.org going to remove the dino in the start page of Mail/News????

#8 Re: About FB

by brokenvoice

Thursday April 24th, 2003 3:25 AM

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Hear, hear.

Slapping TM everywhere smacks to me of childishness.

#22 TM(tm)

by mr4482

Thursday April 24th, 2003 6:33 AM

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We saw the same thing with Camino. I strongly suspect the AOLTW legal team has recommended that mozilla.org use the TM suffix for some legal reason (probably just CYA, I'm pretty sure it's not necessary, but IANAL).

It would be nice to have some confirmation from mozilla.org about this, though.

#2 Turnout

by brianmurphy

Thursday April 24th, 2003 1:15 AM

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Unless if you have evidance of tampering, anyone outside of mozillazine admins "fixing" the poll seems unlikely. I think the most obvious answer explains the turnout. Not many people care about the roadmap of a mostly functional product. Lots of people care about you being bad community members. 10x more votes on a controversial and well publicised issue doesn't surprise me. Why does it surprise you? And FWIW, trumping the database project name is a sleazy thing to do.

#5 Re: Turnout

by GAThrawn

Thursday April 24th, 2003 2:49 AM

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"Not many people care about the roadmap of a mostly functional product."

On the contrary the new roadmap was one of the most controversial topics that had been talked about and voted on here for a long time, until the current renaming issue reared its head.

It was nothing like previous recent roadmap announcements, that just changed the timing of a few milestones, or announced the status of stable, long-lived branches etc, this was a real big change, in many ways a change in the whole thinking and ethos of the Mozilla suite and there were about 2000 votes cast on it (1936 to be precise, see <http://www.mozillazine.or…poll_results.html?id=3044>). In fact in terms of Mozilla the application and the project, the roadmap changes are far more important and are going to have far longer reaching effects than two of the Mozilla projects changing their names.

So I would have expected a large number of the active members here to have voted on this compared to previous issues.

#13 Re: Turnout

by peterlairo <Peter@Lairo.com>

Thursday April 24th, 2003 4:46 AM

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> the roadmap changes are far more important and are going to have far longer reaching effects than two of the Mozilla projects changing their names.

Unfortunately, the opposite may be true; and to the detriment of the mozilla project. So calously stepping on another's toes is a very bad thing to do, and will sour many of the contributors' attitude toward mozilla (including mine). :(

#21 so much drama

by bandido

Thursday April 24th, 2003 6:31 AM

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I rather have some "contribuitors" keep quiet if all they do is complain about how great Lotus Organizer is and how bad Calendar is ... hehehe. Contribute with code or with QA not with senseless comments about what a product is not 'demanding' features as if paying the developers to do so.

I doubt very much that people who use Mozilla now will stop using it because of the name change and the controversy created by the people who started the name mis-appropiation in the first place (don't forget Firebird BBS predates Firebird, the DB). I know a couple of people who are in contact with the Firebird BBS who want them involved in the discussion. In any case, their opinion will be very interesting: 1) if they don't care, then why Mozilla care?, 2)if they feel that FirebirdSQL did to them what they claim Mozilla is doing to FirebirdSQL, then the moral ground is shifted significantlyin Moz fgavor, 3) if they side with FirebirdSQL, then Mozilla muist reconsider

#40 Not quite

by vondo

Thursday April 24th, 2003 10:22 AM

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"I doubt very much that people who use Mozilla now will stop using it because of the name change and the controversy created..." [polemics deleted]

Yep, I'm not going to stop using it. But in the past I've helped out a little with bug testing, test cases, etc. I'm not going to be doing that anymore because a) what mozilla did was rude b) they are covering themselves in legalese with "we have the right to do this, so we will." That's not the kind of organization I want to have anything to do with.

#49 Re: Not quite

by an_mo

Thursday April 24th, 2003 1:31 PM

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I am going to second vondo's comment. I am sure others think the same. I heard rumors that firebird was going to be only a release codename. I hope this is true...it would be a good compromise, wait until the next release and we'll alll have forgotten about it.

#55 Or even permanent

by vondo

Thursday April 24th, 2003 2:50 PM

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If it's an internal code name, but its never seen in the supplied programs and that I don't have an RPM named firebird, then I think that aspect of it is OK.

However, what I find really disheartening is that the mozilla people never asked the Firebird people if they minded and when they did mind, basically said "piss off, we've got the legal right, sue us if you want." THAT kind of damage can never be undone.

BTW, its my understanding of the timeline that the database people ony got "militant" after receiving such a dismissive response from mozilla.org.

#61 Re: Or even permanent

by bandido

Thursday April 24th, 2003 5:56 PM

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humm, did you read the Roadmap? <http://www.mozilla.org/roadmap.html> The roadmap clearly states that after Moz 1.4 is released, Mozilla will incorporate Phoenix (Firebird) code and becoming the TRUNK development area refering to it as Mozilla 1.5, 1.6, etc. What part didn't you understand? Read point 3 of the New Roadmap section and look at the Roadmap graphic down the page.

#74 My Read

by vondo

Friday April 25th, 2003 11:05 AM

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The way I read this is that mozilla is going to replace the Communicator-like suite in mozilla 1.4 with two stand-alone programs in 1.5. So, there will be a "distribution" called "mozilla" with two programs, mozilla firebird and mozilla thunderbird.

The enhancements from firebird won't be folded back into a one-in-all suite.

So, I expect that the firebird name will live on as a product name, as something that is advertised. It's not just an internal code-name, but a product name. Otherwise, why all the effort to pick a name and run it through legal? If it was just a developer code name, why not pick something non-catchy but something that doesn't have to be vetted like a city name or a horse name (Intel and AMD respectively).

So, I think the reasonable conclusion (and what has been stated by Asa) is that from here on out there is a product called Mozilla Firebird.

Even leaving that aside, my original point is that mozilla is acting more like a corporation than an open source project, and as such, I'm no longer interested in being involved at any level.

#77 how about editing bookmarks on the fly

by an_mo

Friday April 25th, 2003 1:06 PM

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If that is the case, I'm not longer interested in being involved as well. Time will tell.

#23 so much drama

by bandido

Thursday April 24th, 2003 6:34 AM

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I rather have some "contribuitors" keep quiet if all they do is complain about how great Lotus Organizer is and how bad Calendar is ... hehehe. Contribute with code or with QA not with senseless comments about what a product is not 'demanding' features as if paying the developers to do so.

I doubt very much that people who use Mozilla now will stop using it because of the name change and the controversy created by the people who started the name mis-appropiation in the first place (don't forget Firebird BBS predates Firebird, the DB). I know a couple of people who are in contact with the Firebird BBS who want them involved in the discussion. In any case, their opinion will be very interesting: 1) if they don't care, then why Mozilla care?, 2)if they feel that FirebirdSQL did to them what they claim Mozilla is doing to FirebirdSQL, then the moral ground is shifted significantlyin Moz fgavor, 3) if they side with FirebirdSQL, then Mozilla muist reconsider

#3 There are huge unseen and silent public

by erickleung

Thursday April 24th, 2003 1:56 AM

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As the poll had shown us that there are huge public overlook the development of mozilla. They are just keep silent so the development teams would have the largest freedom in their creation. The silent is broken only when there is something wrong, or when the community is in need of supports. (that is FirebirdSQL community in this time). And most importantly it reconfirms that the community is beyond our imagination, our cultural background and/or nations boundry.

#4 Before this goes any further

by kerz <jason@mozillazine.org>

Thursday April 24th, 2003 2:34 AM

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We have about 7000 members. Perhaps a bit more, perhaps a bit less. I estimate that at most, 2000 of those members are active. That leaves roughly 18000 votes unaccounted for. After a brief look at our logs, those hits weren't all that unique. So, as the site admin, here's my take: not 20,000, and more than likely not even 2000 people voted in that poll. There was an overwhelming majority in favor of the name before a certain DB site suggested people sign up and vote, and within hours the results had changed. Is the poll in any way accurate? I know it isn't. We really should have pulled it the first day after someone bombed it for votes, but I decided that I'd leave it up, just to show how far some people would go. So please, don't try and use this as some sort of "signal" from some silent majority, because it's not. The only thing it shows is that people will stop at nothing to make sure they appear to be right.

jason

#6 Re: Before this goes any further

by Psiren

Thursday April 24th, 2003 3:04 AM

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Perhaps you should take a moment to think why this particular poll has caused so much hassle. It's quite clear that this naming problem is a very thorny issue. I think the mozilla team should make a public statement stating their position on the matter. I personally think moz is a great piece of software, but I was dissapointed with the name change. It may be legal, but that doesn't make it right. I know I'd be annoyed if someone took the name of one of my projects. Really, with all the resources AOL has you'd think they could come up with an original name.

#9 OK, but...

by prometeo

Thursday April 24th, 2003 3:28 AM

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You have the numbers, so you are absolutely right. My view, apart from the poll, is that many people like me dislike mozilla.org decision and probably most of them didn't even vote: not everybody on the net likes voting polls (which is true also for people who actually like the new name). Using the name of another OSS project is something I think is wrong and which I would personally avoid, even if I have the legal right to do so. But that's me, myself and I; don't want to change everybody else's mind. As a mozilla contributor (ok, no code, but translation stuff) and long time supporter (even evangelist among friends), I have done what I was able to: vote in poll and write some posts. I won't comment further and I will keep supporting our beloved browser (or suite, or whatever...) in silence, as I have done in the past. BTW, thanks a lot for all the work done in mozillazine to you and all the others admins.

#24 Re: OK, but...

by bandido

Thursday April 24th, 2003 6:38 AM

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Humm, so can we infer that you don't support FirebirdSQL because they also took the name from another OSS project, Firebird BBS, that existed way before the database project?

#14 Re: Before this goes any further

by Ded

Thursday April 24th, 2003 4:53 AM

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"After a brief look at our logs, those hits weren't all that unique."

I have'nt any doubts any poll is to some extent corrupted by few irresponsible persons. But I hardly believe there should'nt be many of them. When I placed link to this poll in Russian Firebird Community forum, I warned people not to do this. Note:

a) I don't asked just my friends, they are interested persons. b) I don't asked them at all, just said they _can_ vote if they expect problems to support their customers if there will be two Firebirds on customer's computers.

"So, as the site admin, here's my take: not 20,000, and more than likely not even 2000 people voted in that poll."

Sorry, my English is'nt perfect, what do you want to say - there was less than 2000 unique votes or less than 2000 votes of Mozilla people? If first, I can't beleive you, only our Russian Firebird _users_ community unites about 1000 active members and at least 10 000 lurkers. Even if 20% of us voted (common statistic law 20x80) we already are near 2000 barrier. As far as I know Brasil community is not less numerous, have no exact information about Australian, Europe and USA, just know they exists.

"We really should have pulled it the first day after someone bombed it for votes, but I decided that I'd leave it up, just to show how far some people would go."

My apologies if you wanted to hear own voice only, I erronously thought you want estimate public opinion.

Alexander V.Nevsky.

#44 Re: Re: Before this goes any further

by penrou

Thursday April 24th, 2003 12:19 PM

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"there was less than 2000 unique votes or less than 2000 votes of Mozilla people?"

The former--fewer than 2000 uniques.

It's a given that polls of this kind are unscientific. One person is not equivalent to one IP, after all.

"My apologies if you wanted to hear own voice only, I erronously thought you want estimate public opinion."

When the ballot box is stuffed with thousands of extra votes, a poll becomes useless as an estimate of public opinion.

#15 Re: Before this goes any further

by arvindn

Thursday April 24th, 2003 5:02 AM

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RRRiiiight.

So not even 2000 people voted in the poll, and the FirebirdSQL people fixed it so that "shouldn't have picked firebird" got 6100 votes. Could you also please explain how "love it" got 6200 votes? Mozillazine people fixing the vote? Please drop your holier-than-thou attitude. I find the sentence "29% of the votes cast were by people who think that mozilla.org should not have picked the same name as the Firebird database" to be particularly immature and hypocritical.

I'd say the number of votes is a rather obvious consequence of the publicity and the multiple slashdottings.

#20 Re: Re: Before this goes any further

by schapel

Thursday April 24th, 2003 6:13 AM

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"I find the sentence "29% of the votes cast were by people who think that mozilla.org should not have picked the same name as the Firebird database" to be particularly immature and hypocritical."

What's "immature and hypocritical" about saying that 29% of the votes were cast for that choice? This is exactly the kind of reactionary comment that causes me not to listen to all the whiners. Start discussing things rationally, and maybe someone will listen...

#26 Re: Re: Re: Before this goes any further

by arvindn

Thursday April 24th, 2003 7:51 AM

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I think you totally missed the point.

Read the announcement again. It says 30% of the _voters_ chose "love it", 6% like it, ... etc but when it comes to the offending opinion it goes out of the way to point out that the option got 29% of the _votes_. And for the last option it again reverts to saying that 12% of the people chose it. As I pointed out, if multiple votes were cast for the penultimate option then it was most certainly the case with the first option too. The un-subtle allegation was totally unnecessary after making it clear that "we strongly believe that certain parties made concerted efforts to fix the contest". Contest? What contest? I never saw it as a contest. How much money is the winner getting?

I'll say it again. Immature. Hypocritical.

And its funny you should call me a whiner. Because I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other on the name. I'd never even heard of the Firebird database before this controversy started. I was _merely_ pointing out the illogic and the childishness of it.

#32 No, you totally missed the point!

by schapel

Thursday April 24th, 2003 8:38 AM

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I think you're reading way more into what you read than what is being said. For example, I never called you a whiner, although you read that into what I said. The more people are irrational and reactionary like this, the less likely it is for any compromise or different decision to be made. That's my point, and you just demonstrated it once again!

#30 Re: Re: Before this goes any further

by tve

Thursday April 24th, 2003 8:22 AM

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the "love it" option must have been boosted just shortly before the poll was closed.. because when I last checked it, it was at 5% or something like that... so see it as an immature "response" to immature poll flooding by the DB supporters and/or Mozilla haters ;)

#33 yep

by warenhaus

Thursday April 24th, 2003 8:42 AM

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i can't remember the "love it" option being this high neither.

and: i am not of the "FbDB community", was registered before the name change, AND voted for the "they shouldn't" option. Once. there should be some protection against double votes other than a cookie. IP-logging?

#39 Re: yep

by Sander

Thursday April 24th, 2003 10:14 AM

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>> i can't remember the "love it" option being this high neither. <<

I can. During the first two days of the poll. Admittedly "like it" and "neutral" were slightly ahead at that time, but "love it" came right after.

Anyway, the entire renaming issue is now worth nothing more than a big *yawn* as far as I'm concerned. Could y'all please go and squabble somewhere else?

#71 that was when it started

by warenhaus

Friday April 25th, 2003 5:35 AM

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now it seems that even at the end the "love it" got 30%, although the other options had much much more votes everytime i look (the reason for this is another story)

#35 Re: Before this goes any further

by ArnoB

Thursday April 24th, 2003 9:05 AM

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Well publish all real data then ?

How do you decide if the votes are unique or not ?

#50 then update your cms

by an_mo

Thursday April 24th, 2003 1:38 PM

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How difficult would it be to introduce a "registered users vote once" option?. You'd only have to store who voted, not wha they voted for, thereby protecting anonymity. I know your cms has more important deficiencies, you may want to look at other open source cms that give you more flexibilities (xaraya comes to mind, their polls have the options you want).

#58 And what does that solve?

by Quark

Thursday April 24th, 2003 3:04 PM

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When all it would take is to register a new name?

Online Polls always can and always will be cheated.

#78 how about editing bookmarks on the fly

by an_mo

Friday April 25th, 2003 1:08 PM

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true, but you need another email address? It just makes it a little more difficult. But you're right, ain't going to be a scientific survey.

#63 Don't forget slashdot

by mooman

Thursday April 24th, 2003 6:42 PM

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Yeah, there may not be a large community "normally", but keep in mind this got a fair amount of slashdot exposure: thousands of rabid geeks with trigger-reflexes at filling out polls. Personally, I'm surprised there wasn't a lengthy list of "where's the CowboyNeal option?" responses...

"Slashdot - skewing polls and melting webservers on a daily basis..."

#7 People have spoken: DON’T WANT THAT “FIREBIRD” NAM

by watchman

Thursday April 24th, 2003 3:16 AM

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People have spoken and clearly said they don’t want that ambiguous name, even with the results that “apparently” has got Mozillazine. The news is “Mozilla directives do what they want. People, you don’t mind a ****“. What happened with that?

#10 Online polls

by metalcrypt66

Thursday April 24th, 2003 3:51 AM

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It's a no-brainer that, just like the MozillaZine forums were invaded, the online poll was flooded by the database people. One thing's for sure, rigging an online poll is common, I've seen it so many times I stopped counting. Either using different IPs or asking friends to go vote or whatever. So the poll was totally useless to begin with, considering all the childish crap that's been going on since the name announcement.

Personally, I don't care about the name for the browser, be it Firebird or something else. I'm only concerned, new roadmap in mind, about it having at least the functionality of the Mozilla browser (which I currently use.) I didn't know about the database before all this story, now I do and I also know I'll steer clear of it, as I'm not interested in using a database product sponsored (whatever) by an organisation that came up with the retarded flood/spam/troll response call that IBPhoenix & Friends have been doing over the past several days. In fact, I advised a group at work who was looking into open source databases to steer clear of it - I didn't editorialise, I just pointed them to the starting point of the anti-Firebird browser campaign and they agreed they had no interest in doing business with that kind of people. So the Firebird database did get some additional recognition, but their childish behaviour has also hurt them. Good.

If anything, I'd say just change the name so we can get rid of the trolls and have the Mozilla-related people (developers and users) go back to useful discussion. But if the name remains the same, I won't be crying about it, I only care about the functionality of the end product.

#11 Re: Online polls

by jilles

Thursday April 24th, 2003 4:40 AM

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> If anything, I'd say just change the name so we can get rid of the trolls and have the Mozilla-related people (developers and users) go back to useful discussion. But if the name remains the same, I won't be crying about it, I only care about the functionality of the end product.

Just look at how the KDE project continues to suffer from a (long resolved) conflict over licensing of QT. This is the kind of thing Mozilla can live without. As long as the firebird name is arround there will be flamewars about it. Just imagine each mozilla release announcement (i.e. every two months or so) on slashdot degrading in a flamewar about the firebird name for the next few years. So yes please get rid of the name (as I stated before, it sucks anyway).

#12 Re: Re: Online polls

by metalcrypt66

Thursday April 24th, 2003 4:46 AM

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I'm not too familiar with the KDE project (I know what it is, but that's about it), so I don't know what the QT licensing story is.

#18 Re: Online polls

by Ded

Thursday April 24th, 2003 5:32 AM

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"In fact, I advised a group at work who was looking into open source databases to steer clear of it"

As Boris Zbarsky asked another person during this unpleasant week, how old are you? I think about 13? :) I assure you, personally I will not say my customers to don't use Mozilla software just because I don't like behaviour of someone in Mozilla staff. I'll not speak about why this sad chain of events occured, all this many times was said and discussed.

"So the Firebird database did get some additional recognition"

I was shocked by yesterdays provocative article on slashdot about Ann Harrison interview on mozillazine. Where on Earth author of this article found aspiration to publicity in her words? BTW, I assure you, we (Firebird Foundation) don't need more publicity than we merited, overeating is not good for anybody health, level of publicity should be natural. We just are not ready to publicity compatible with Mozilla, we have not nor human resources to help large stream of newbies, neither experience of coordination of hundreds code developers. Note we are Open Source project, we don't sell Firebird software, it is free, all funds we take from our own pockets so we have not pure marketing reasons to loud about ourselves. We just want to save over own.

Alexander V.Nevsky.

#25 Re: Re: Online polls

by metalcrypt66

Thursday April 24th, 2003 7:34 AM

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"As Boris Zbarsky asked another person during this unpleasant week, how old are you? I think about 13? :)"

If that's your only defense, laugh it up all you want. I'm old enough to not call for childish trolling, and to not troll whenever I'm in disagreement with something. One may wonder if the Firebird database organisation isn't run by 13 years old, based on your reasoning here. ;) Fact is, our work is far too critical to base it on software developed by an immature organisation - well, that's a bit unfair since they later called for a more respectful response, but the damage had been done already. We'll just stick to either MySQL or PostgreSQL... Unless in the end they decide to simply go for a commercial one, which wouldn't surprise me in the least. After all, we're already stuck with IE and are not allowed to use other browsers except for a few limited cases. Yipee.

#28 Re: Re: Re: Online polls

by Ded

Thursday April 24th, 2003 8:16 AM

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"One may wonder if the Firebird database organisation isn't run by 13 years old, based on your reasoning here. ;)"

Glad to see you sized up joke, humour often helps to understand each other in confusing situations. Still friends? ;)

"We'll just stick to either MySQL or PostgreSQL..."

All SQL servers have advantages and disadvantages, perhaps for your task MySQL is best. I never recommend somebody to rely on brand, technical decisions should be considered mainly on technical basis. But any brand should be recognizeable without any confusion.

"Unless in the end they decide to simply go for a commercial one, which wouldn't surprise me in the least. After all, we're already stuck with IE and are not allowed to use other browsers except for a few limited cases. Yipee."

This is the point. We don't need MySQL or PostgreSQL users, our aim for today is Borland InterBase users. And after we'll go to assault MSSQL and Oracle towers _together_ with MySQL and PostgreSQL, each on own sector. We understand and sympathize Mozilla people in their competition with MS. And current incident hurt all Open Source world, this is most sad point in all this story.

Alexander V.Nevsky.

#16 I want to use a browser I'm not ashamed to name

by Prognathous

Thursday April 24th, 2003 5:21 AM

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I don't want to use the Firebird name. It's just plain wrong and although the browser itself is the best around, it is now unnecessarily blemished. It would be stupid of me to use a different name than the one used by the project. Moreover, "Phoenix" is no longer an option and so is "Navigator".

Should I switch to another Gecko-based browser just to ditch this problem? I'll be happy to use Mozilla 1.4, but unfortunately, this is a dying branch. I'm lost here :-\

Prog.

#38 Re: I want to use a browser I'm not ashamed to nam

by bzbarsky

Thursday April 24th, 2003 10:10 AM

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You're not supposed to be using the Firebird name for actual releases of the browser once it hits 1.0.... It's a codename.

#41 I don't get it, how am I supposed to refer to it?

by Prognathous

Thursday April 24th, 2003 10:45 AM

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I did plan to use this browser before it hits 1.0...

Prog.

#48 Re: I don't get it, how am I supposed to refer to

by bzbarsky

Thursday April 24th, 2003 1:18 PM

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"Mozilla Firebird" is likely your best bet.

#42 Re: Re: I want to use a browser I'm not ashamed to nam

by Ded

Thursday April 24th, 2003 11:06 AM

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Boris, Delphi and Kylix were only codenames too, but since during beta cycle thousands of people habited to this names... Note that almost nobody except Borland call them "Borland Delphi" and "Borland Kylix". Perhaps we are oversensible to our brand, I can't judge it as cool observer, but it is law of social psychology, small entities are much more sensible in this sphere, we in ex-USSR area have similar problems now with Estonians, for example, who in their aspiration for self-determination sometimes gets over bounds of reasonability. We understand this and meet this in a mode which would be inacceptable if it was compatible power. We really are very concerned to sink in the shadow of giant. Taking an opportunity I want to express my respect to Mozilla developers and regret if our attempt to attract attention by numerous mails was destructive for your and others work.

Alexander V.Nevsky.

#47 Re: Re: Re: I want to use a browser I'm not ashame

by bzbarsky

Thursday April 24th, 2003 1:17 PM

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Alexander, I realize all this. See my blog (<http://www.mozillazine.or…s/bz/archives/003081.html>) for my take on this whole issue....

#17 Real Online Polls

by lsces

Thursday April 24th, 2003 5:22 AM

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Perhaps now is the time that the polls should be recording the forum membership, rather then just click on the screen. Not everybody has a permanent IP address anyway, and cookies can be deleted, so record votes in the same way as you restrict comments?

#19 I Call for a vote

by PC1

Thursday April 24th, 2003 5:49 AM

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on the name "Firechick". <p> Firebird is no good, we should pay attention to the the (yonger) chicks and all chicks as far as I am concerned :)

#27 Bad vote or good vote

by modok

Thursday April 24th, 2003 8:07 AM

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I am a die-hard mozilla fan who constantly scans check-ins and advocates its use. I also voted that it should not have picked the same name. I think even if firebird only is a codename for the stand-alone browser, it will wipe Firebird SQL off the first page of google results (though it hasn't happened yet) on a search for 'firebird' in six months. Perhaps, the Firebird SQL people were hypocritical about taking another projects name, but that does not make it alright for Mozilla to do the same thing.

#29 Not surprising

by job

Thursday April 24th, 2003 8:18 AM

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Of course this is not surprising! I've been reading Mozillazine since it started regularly (last year on a weekly basis), and not until this came up did I register as a user. I think there are many people like me here!

It is interesting as a news source, but since I do not take part in Mozilla development I am more interested to read here than to write (English not being my native tongue and all).

The roadmap concerns mainly developers, but this stupid name thing affects us users in a more direct way. It is we who have to put up with the name clashes in the Linux distros later on...

#31 Re: Not surprising

by tve

Thursday April 24th, 2003 8:33 AM

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the new roadmap was seen as "the most radical change to the Mozilla project since the late 1998 decision to rewrite much of the code"...

so no, this was no geek stuff, it affected the end-user much more than a new project name..

it's obvious that this poll was faked, just read the other comments here, especially kerz's.

#34 roadmap vs name

by warenhaus

Thursday April 24th, 2003 8:50 AM

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as you can see in the forums, the roadmap is far from being understood by everyone. (they don't care to read.) a name change is catchy and everybody understands what it means (more or less). that explains why more pple are interested in it. reading this talkback, i see many Moz-users explaining their votes against the name (as i did). plus: kerz is a little bit exaggerating with the terms he uses like "stop at nothing" or "how far some people would go". multiple voting on a poll that doesn't take too much effort on preventing this is quite normal behaviour (well...), although i have to admit i only voted once, fully aware of the meaninglessness of my vote.

#81 Re: Re: Not surprising

by pomes

Friday April 25th, 2003 2:22 PM

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A) Whether or not the poll was faked is a small symptom of the issue. The issue is that Firebird DB users *as well as* Mozilla users (myself included) are disgusted with this and feel compelled to speak out about it.

B) I usually peruse the roadmaps but don't ever feel compelled to comment on them because I love Mozilla and trust the people who work on it implicitly as far as technical issues go, as well as issues concerning the future visions for the product. I believe in the vision and the technical skills of the Mozilla leadership. After this mess, though, I know not to trust their ethical skills.

#70 Many people like me too

by shodan

Friday April 25th, 2003 4:44 AM

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Yes, I'm in the same boat. I've been reading MozillaZine regularly for around 2 years (and using Mozilla on a day to day basis since 0.9) but never posted to the forums until this came up. I think there's two issues here though; I might have been prompted to help pick the name of the core mozilla browser, if I had known that was what everyone was voting about but at the time Phoenix was just an interesting offshoot from Mozilla. Picking the name of the core browser is obviously more significant, in many ways.

However, several people have suggested that this is just a codename (like SeaMonkey) and that the browser once released will probably be called Mozilla Browser (or similar), which is something that I can live with. I don't think it matters so much if Firebird is just a tranitory name for this generation of the Mozilla Browser that will disappear for the next generation (unlike Gecko, which seems to be the name of the technology). If this is the case, it would probably cool the passions of everyone involved if this were announced in a fairly unequivocal manner sometime soon.

As someone that uses the Mozilla Browser & MailNews I'd really prefer everyone spend more time making sure that the new apps have at least the functionality of the previous architecture than arguing about naming... it's a pity that this has somehow managed to get this far!

#36 generate_name | uniq?

by zino

Thursday April 24th, 2003 9:23 AM

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The Firebird name is clearly stolen from Firebird, makes of such great games as Bubble Bobble and Rick Dangerous. So a database group trying to claim sole ownership to the name comes out as silly as say a company trying to trademark "Word".

When choosing a name for your project; if you don't want trouble, make sure the name doesn't trigger a single hit in Google*.

* By definition, if it isn't in Googles database it doesn't exist.

#46 Zero hits in Google

by JuanGonzalez

Thursday April 24th, 2003 12:47 PM

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> When choosing a name for your project; if you don't want trouble, make sure the name doesn't trigger a single hit in Google*.

Right, there are plenty of names not in Google. Just by following this already too long story, a few suitable ones are:

Confusedbird, Burnedbird, Itsonlyanamebird, Trademarkbird, Mailbomberbird, Idontcarebird, Letstalkbird, Talktomylawyerbird...

All of them have zero hits in Google, and anyone of us may identify with at least one of them. :-)

But it seems from the posts that the name that is being more and more popular for common people like us is Civilizedbird.

Let's hope both sides will be able to find together a fair solution soon, so all of us can go ahead with more significant things.

#37 Let it go...

by lazytiger

Thursday April 24th, 2003 9:48 AM

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It's obvious that the Mozilla team was aware of the Firebird DB before they decided to use the name. What's also obvious is that they had no idea there would be such a backlash from sharing the name. I think it's pretty childish for the DB people to be so whiny about the issue, but the fact is they are. Why not just let the name go now that there's way too much hassle and ill-will towards using the name? This leads me to ask another question: Why was the Mozilla team so secretive about the new name until they were fixated on one? Wasn't the point of coming up with a new name so that there wouldn't be any more conflict about it? If they had run the idea of using Firebird across to the public before they became so belligerent about keeping it, we wouldn't be in this situation right now.

Both parties are being very childish. Just let it go....

#43 Re: Childishness

by redvine

Thursday April 24th, 2003 11:47 AM

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Childishness is exactly what is the root of all of this. I spoke out against Phoenix on this website many months ago because I perceived the Phoenix leaders to be childish compared to the Mozilla leaders (although there is a large overlap between the two groups if not between the public face and tenor of the two) and I did not like that influence. They made rude statements about suggestions that did not come from the controlling clique, and the very choice of name was an insult to all Mozilla supporters: clearly they felt Mozilla was dead and that only they could engineer its rebirth.

Perhaps they were right, given the new roadmap, but that ignores the whole concept of open source software, which is that groups can do what they want with the code as long as they return their changes to the community. If they are useful changes, the community, in the form of the parent product, will likely incorporate the changes and everyone wins. That is exactly what happened here, we could be talking happy ending, but the Phoenix kids were not happy just patting themselves on the back for what they had accomplished, improving the product; they had to sully the product with their corrupt idea of development (ignore advice, ram their own ideas down everyone's throat), and their corrupt name -- now evolved to "Firebird" for legal reasons.

Meanwhile, a similar forking occurred with another product, with a similar set of yahoos gloating about how they had "saved" whatever... They wanted Phoenix, couldn't have it for legal reasons and settled on Firebird (which still sounds like a car to me).

What the Firebird people forget is that there is something that is more important than the browser software, and that is the community. Making changes that benefit the browser but at large cost to the community are not beneficial. What is needed are changes that benefit both -- or at least benefit one without cost to the other.

Logically, the name should stay Mozilla Web Browser and Mozilla Mail. Besides all of the above, throwing away five years of name recognition is stupid.

If they want to change the name, they should change it to "Pandora" as opening a box of evilness upon the world is closer to what they have accomplished than a rebirth of anything. Or perhaps they should call it "Jesus' Second Coming" while they are at it and really start some religious wars.

#45 Re: Childishness

by lazytiger

Thursday April 24th, 2003 12:39 PM

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That's some good insight - thanks. I wasn't really aware that the Phoenix team was such a renegade bunch. I guess the whole insistence of calling it Phoenix/Firebird makes a little more sense now (and of course it is a nice match with Thunderbird). And all that much more childish. I understand the need to have some sort of code name for the project to differentiate it from the Classic Mozilla browser until the code is merged, but ultimately it should retain the simple monikers of Mozilla Browser and Mozilla Mail. The very nature of code names and their temporary use just makes this whole situation that much more absurd. Get over it already. Call the damn thing something else - it's not worth all the animosity. Unless of course they're *not* planning on ever dropping the Firebird/Thunderbird names, in which case I just have to throw my arms up in despair. Other people have already expounded on the issue of how stupid it would be to cast aside the Mozilla name. Or if it would be used in conjunction with Firebird/Thunderbird, which is more likely the case, I still think it's utterly stupid sounding: Mozilla Firebird? What the hell is that? The words don't sound good together at all. But that's just my opinion; I'm sure other people would be happy to flame me over that. (good pun, too)

#52 Just lovely

by cgonyea

Thursday April 24th, 2003 2:11 PM

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[quote]They made rude statements about suggestions that did not come from the controlling clique, and the very choice of name was an insult to all Mozilla supporters: clearly they felt Mozilla was dead and that only they could engineer its rebirth.[/quote]

Now we got conspiracy theorists on this web site. Just lovely.

When Phoenix first started, it was more a proof of concept then something that was bent on declaring Mozilla dead. You know, that it was possible to write a browser that is much faster, more user friendly, and takes less space then the current Mozilla suite while still using XUL and other Mozilla technologies so it could be cross-platform. Nothing really different from the other browsers that have been based on Mozilla in the past.

The thing is, Phoenix really caught on, I think much more then anyone (even the devs) could of dreamed. Maybe it was something to do with the strong user friendly focus, maybe it was the focus on the standalone browser, maybe it was the speed, maybe it was the vision. Probably all of the above at this point. Soon people were wishing for a standalone e-mail client that had the same ideas behind it that were driving Phoenix. Enter Minatour (now Thunderbird).

Pretty soon, it was clearly from a technological as well as usability standpoint that Firebird and Mozilla were the future of Mozilla. The popularity of Thunderbird and especially Firebird has shot through the roof. The benefits from the Firebird and Thunderbird development approach are well know and the results speak for themselves.

The Mozilla Firebird developers are not childish. They just defend their creation. Firebird is their project. The problem with the Mozilla suite is the fact that nearly ever suggestion was added to it. Hence the bloat.

The suggestion that the spirit of open source development is being violated is quite frankly not true. Linux has strict control over what gets checked in. No one cries about that. Something not being included into Firebird and you wish it were, but turned down by the developers? Your idea or suggestion will probably not benefit the vast majority of users. Try to write an extension or have someone write one for you that impliments your idea. If you still think your idea is worthy for inclusion, try to get supporters. Write a clear, easy to read statement about why your suggestion/idea should be included. Provide examples of other projects that do a similar idea/suggestion.

Sometimes even open source projects have to be strict on certain things. That is just life. Survey this Mozilla community and I bet 95% of the people will say that they are happy with how things are being run and the direction of the project. No one can be made 100% happy.

[quote] If they want to change the name, they should change it to "Pandora" as opening a box of evilness upon the world is closer to what they have accomplished than a rebirth of anything. Or perhaps they should call it "Jesus' Second Coming" while they are at it and really start some religious wars. [/quote]

I'm sorry you feel this way, but comments like that are way more childish then any single thing the Mozilla developers have said. The community as a whole ignore those who make comments like this. Go find another open source browser if you are really this bitter.

#53 Re: Just lovely

by warenhaus

Thursday April 24th, 2003 2:41 PM

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The browser is good, the mail client will be. agree on that. but the selection of the name (plus its secret process), that was a bad one. and so was the reaction (of mozilla.org) to the reaction (of FbDB).

#60 Nonsense

by Kovu <Kovu401@netscape.net>

Thursday April 24th, 2003 4:23 PM

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mozilla.org's response was actually pretty polite given that the FbDB folks first posted an invitation to spam the Hell out of just about all major Mozilla developers, including those that had nothing to do with the name change. MZ was then totally deluged with /. and FbDB people (many of which are still here) artificially influencing poll results, slinging troll-like statements, and otherwise annoying what was a fairly quiet community Web site. And the poll was not secret. Mozilla community members that saw it voted, those that didn't didn't.

#68 Re: Nonsense

by the_Rebel

Friday April 25th, 2003 12:17 AM

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Nonsense is definitely the correct title for your post.

mozilla.org's response has not been polite at all.

The Firebird group's first response was to politely send email to people at mozilla.org.

When mozilla.org completely ignored those Firebird emails, then the Firebird group encouraged people to send email; it was never an invitation to spam the Hell out of anyone. You obviously are basing your claims on third hand information because it certainly is not based upon what was said on the Firebird group website.

#75 Re: Re: Nonsense

by AlexBishop <alex@mozillazine.org>

Friday April 25th, 2003 12:48 PM

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"The Firebird group's first response was to politely send email to people at mozilla.org."

Have you seen any of the emails? How can you be certain that they were polite?

"When mozilla.org completely ignored those Firebird emails, then the Firebird group encouraged people to send email"

How quickly should mozilla.org have responded to the emails? It would seem that the Firebird database people waited less than 48 hours before encouraging other people to email.

Alex

#82 Re: Re: Re: Nonsense

by the_Rebel

Wednesday April 30th, 2003 11:37 PM

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// "The Firebird group's first response was to politely send email to people at mozilla.org." // // Have you seen any of the emails? How can you be certain that they were polite?

Alex, I am talking about the emails that were sent last year when the Firebird name was first suggested. Although it is true that I have not seen those emails, I would be willing to bet that they were polite. Do you have any reason to think that they were not?

// "When mozilla.org completely ignored those Firebird emails, then the Firebird group // encouraged people to send email" // // How quickly should mozilla.org have responded to the emails? It would seem that the Firebird // database people waited less than 48 hours before encouraging other people to email.

No, it was not 48 hours later, it was months later. You misunderstood me. I was referring to the original emails sent last year which were completely ignored by mozilla.org when mozilla.org announced that that they had chosen Firebird as the new name.

#83 Reformatting

by the_Rebel

Wednesday April 30th, 2003 11:38 PM

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It is extremely annoying that this board always reformats messages.

#84 Re: Re: Re: Re: Nonsense

by AlexBishop <alex@mozillazine.org>

Monday May 5th, 2003 6:25 AM

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"Alex, I am talking about the emails that were sent last year when the Firebird name was first suggested."

As far as I am aware, the first emails sent by the database people were sent after the new name was announced on Monday 14th April. I refer you to this part of the interview with Ann Harrison <http://mozillazine.org/articles/article3097.html> :

" Actually, our initial approach was directly to Asa Dotzler. His responses were consistent and unyielding - our legal staff (AOL's legal staff) says we can and we've done it and that's the end of it... By then, I realized that the name change from Phoenix to Firebird had been discussed in the MozillaZine forums at least since December of last year without anyone having contacted us."

That strongly suggests that they didn't know about the change until the name change was announced. If they didn't know then they can't have contacted mozilla.org about it until after the name change was announced. This mailing list message <119/b7gbl2$7fi$1@news2.atkin.com>" rel="nofollow"><news://news.atkin.com:119…<bl2$7fi$1@news2.atkin.com>> also implies that they did not know about the name change until after it happened.

"No, it was not 48 hours later, it was months later. You misunderstood me. I was referring to the original emails sent last year which were completely ignored by mozilla.org when mozilla.org announced that that they had chosen Firebird as the new name."

mozilla.org didn't announce the new name last year, they announced it on Monday 14th April 2003. The orginal request asking Firebird database supporters to email Mozilla people and post in Mozilla forums <http://www.ibphoenix.com/…nix&page=ibp_Mozilla0> (since updated to remove most of the email addresses) was mentioned in a CNET News.com article <http://news.com.com/2100-1032-997089.html> posted on Wednesday 16th April at 6:55am PT. That's less than 48 hours after the new name was announced and hence less than 48 hours after the first emails were sent by the Firebird database community leaders.

Alex

#54 Re: Just lovely

by lazytiger

Thursday April 24th, 2003 2:46 PM

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Not to say that that redvine knows all or is an unbiased source of information, but I find the idea of the Phoenix team being a little cocky quite believeable. I think you missed the point, or at least, you got something totally different out of his message than I did. This has nothing to do with the actual product or its code; Phoenix/Firebird is a great project and I elated that it's being integrated into the trunk. What I am annoyed by is the asinine situation that has come about just because of its name. It is 100% childish to insist that it be called a particular name at the behest of a few people when the community at large is torn over it. They are not "defending their creation." Yes, they created the project - they did not *create* the word "Firebird." Whether they can get away with using the name Firebird or not is irrelevant. The fact that there is a very large group of people that have their panties in a bunch over the name is reason enough to simply drop it and get another one. We are not here to endlessly battle over intellectual property. Give the project a name people won't bitch about so that we can move on.

#69 Re: Re: Childishness

by the_Rebel

Friday April 25th, 2003 12:47 AM

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I agree with redvine. Ever since the Phoenix project appeared, it has been saturated with examples of arrogance and childishness. This Firebird naming thing is just the latest example. Previous examples appear throughout these forums and even in previous versions of the Phoenix FAQ. I used to spend a lot more time on Mozilla than I have for the past 6 months; the primary reason for the change was that I got sick of the immature attitude coming from the Phoenix crowd.

Regarding this latest issue, I just simply do not understand why anyone involved with Mozilla would be so determined to use the name Firebird. Can anyone provide a logical explanation for why it is important to use the name Firebird?

I am not looking for a legal justification for the use of the name; I am looking for a logical justification for why mozilla.org is determined to use the name despite all of the issues that it has caused and will continue to cause.

From what I can tell, Firebird was chosen because of it was the coolest sounding name that corresponded to the Phoenix name. There is a small bit of logic to that, but not enough to justify the stubborn insistance upon continued use of it.

The whole point of changing the name away from Phoenix was to avoid infringing on anyone else's use of the name; now with Firebird that does not seem to be a concern at all.

#66 they werent secretive at all.

by joschi

Thursday April 24th, 2003 11:15 PM

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there was a public poll taken of a couple dozen different name ideas and firebird won, whats secretive about that?

#67 Re: they werent secretive at all.

by the_Rebel

Friday April 25th, 2003 12:04 AM

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"there was a public poll taken of a couple dozen different name ideas and firebird won, whats secretive about that?"

Talk about a fixed poll...

#51 you have to be secretive

by an_mo

Thursday April 24th, 2003 1:57 PM

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The reason to be secretive is that you have to make sure that nobody "steals" the name, and more importantly, the domain names. There is no way around it, I am involved in another open source project that had to chose a name. It had to be secret, once you have lost the domain name you might as well chose another name. Luckily, they chose a unique name.

Having said that, I support the idea that the choice of Firebird was rude and against the spirit of open source / free software.

#56 Re: you have to be secretive

by lazytiger

Thursday April 24th, 2003 2:54 PM

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I don't think that's a valid argument, given Mozilla's (AOL's) resources. If they were worried about domain names, they could have bought all of the names they were even considering before releasing the potential candidates.

"Luckily they chose a unique name."

Huh? Am I just imagining all of this crap about a Firebird database team that's contesting the name of Mozilla's browser?

#57 Re: Re: you have to be secretive

by lazytiger

Thursday April 24th, 2003 2:56 PM

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I'm sorry... I just realized you were referring to the secrecy of the project name you were involved with.

#59 Re: Re: you have to be secretive

by lazytiger

Thursday April 24th, 2003 3:08 PM

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Also, would the Mozilla team really care if it had the domain name for the project? Would they even use it? Is it not common knowledge that to get mozilla products, you go to mozilla.org? That logic also doesn't work with the name that they already chose. Do they own the domain firebird.com? .org? .net? dot anything?

#72 domain names

by warenhaus

Friday April 25th, 2003 5:40 AM

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firebird.com is a record label or something firbird.net is a webdesign company only firebird.org is "under construction"

#79 how about editing bookmarks on the fly

by an_mo

Friday April 25th, 2003 1:09 PM

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ok, there you go another reason why this choice sucks

#62 I know!

by GerardMason

Thursday April 24th, 2003 6:20 PM

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Let's just call it Flaming Turkey and be done with it!

#64 I know!

by GerardMason

Thursday April 24th, 2003 6:49 PM

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Let's just call it Flaming Turkey and be done with it!

#65 It happened ... again???

by DeepFreeze3

Thursday April 24th, 2003 9:05 PM

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Yet another example of somebody wanting to screw around with a poll that MozillaZine puts out. If this isn't a perfect example for using cookie technology to prevent votor fraud from happening, then I don't know what is.

#76 Re: It happened ... again???

by AlexBishop <alex@mozillazine.org>

Friday April 25th, 2003 12:49 PM

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"If this isn't a perfect example for using cookie technology to prevent votor fraud from happening, then I don't know what is."

Cookies are already used to prevent people from voting more than once. However, it's dead easy to delete the cookie or use a different browser, so the polls rely on honesty more than technology to get a fair result.

Alex

#73 Worthless poll ? or not ...

by mariuz

Friday April 25th, 2003 8:30 AM

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I don't know why they have asked if we know mozilla *bird will not change the name of the browser subproject . Yes the pool was flooded by the FirbirdSQL users but after some anti FirebirdSQL article on Slash Dot the pool is looking "good" now . They asked We have Reacted , but they do nothing ... just waiting .... It was better if we didn't voted .

#80 The poll, and the comments, are pointless

by pomes

Friday April 25th, 2003 2:17 PM

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If we're going to rationalize away anything which points to the possibility that even longtime Mozilla users are not happy with the current decision, why did you even bother having a poll or soliciting comments in the first place? Seems rather pointless.