MozillaZine

First Thunderbird-Branded Stand-Alone Mail/News Build Available for Windows

Thursday April 17th, 2003

corolla writes: "A Windows binary of Thunderbird, dated 2003-04-16, has been posted to ftp.mozilla.org/pub/thunderbird." The build, 2003-04-16-win32.zip, is the first version to carry the new Thunderbird name (previous releases were branded as Minotaur).

In related news, all of mozilla.org's Thunderbird/Minotaur-related information has been moved to the new Thunderbird project site.


#1 So big ???

by youying <youying@gcn.net.tw>

Thursday April 17th, 2003 7:31 PM

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It's 10.2MB...Soooo...BIG !?

#3 Be patient

by cgonyea

Thursday April 17th, 2003 8:06 PM

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Just like Phoe..., oops Mozilla Firebird, was about 10 MB or so at version 0.1. Now it is down to about 6 MB and is still dropping.

Be patient and the size will drop. It is a 0.1 product. There is lots of stuff that can be cut out of Thunderbird.

#4 Re: Be patient

by minh

Thursday April 17th, 2003 9:16 PM

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Yup. A couple of weeks ago, Minotaur was around 20 MB. Now, they cut it down to half. Furthermore, this build contains Gecko Runtime Environment (GRE). In the future, only a portion of Thunderbird will need to downloaded because you might have GRE on the computer. This will make updates more fun. GRE is around 3 MB.

On another note, Phoenix v.5 is 6.07 MB compressed as a Zip file (.zip). Expanded the file is 11.7 MB. However, I recompressed Phoenix v.5 using the 7Zip (.7z) format and got it down to 4.91 MB. Amazing! I chopped off a MegaByte. For the average user on dial-up that means 5-10 minutes less downloading time.

Knowing that not everyone has a 7Zip extractor, I made a 7Zip self extracting executable (.exe). That file is 4.98 MB. Additionally, decompression was a lot faster than the Zip extractor built into Windows XP. Compression was fairly quick as well. With 7Zip, we are getting pretty close to making Firebird as lean as Opera 7 (around 3 MB).

#6 Explain Memory Footprint

by kamiller42

Thursday April 17th, 2003 11:02 PM

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Ok, I can buy into the argument that Thunderbird will shrink in file size, but what about memory footprint? I understand it too will shrink, but since Phoenix and Thunderbird will run as separate processes, each will have its own memory footprint and will no longer share resources as Mozilla's integrated solution can do. Running Phoenix and Thunderbird separate is like running 1.5 to 1.75 Mozillas.

Is this the best route to take?

#7 they will share the GRE

by joschi

Thursday April 17th, 2003 11:19 PM

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the Gecko Runtime environment, which they will both share in memory is all the bits they they share now.

#8 Re: they will share the GRE

by minh

Thursday April 17th, 2003 11:44 PM

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If one crashes, will both of them crash?

#11 Re: Re: they will share the GRE

by bzbarsky

Friday April 18th, 2003 12:22 AM

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No.

The sharing that will happen will be sharing of read-only memory segments (eg program code, constants determined at compile time, etc). No sharing of dynamic data structures will happen.

Of course very little sharing of dynamic data structures happens as it is -- the bulk of Mozilla's footprint at startup is quite simply the size of the code itself.

#21 Re: they will share the GRE

by kamiller42

Friday April 18th, 2003 3:59 PM

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Thanks for the information. That will be acceptable. I was worried I would end up with 2 applications running taking 25MB of RAM a piece. Ouch.

When you say "will", I assume you mean that hasn't happened yet.

#25 Nope

by cgonyea

Saturday April 19th, 2003 9:21 AM

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Hasn't happened yet. I'm taking a wild guess and say that it will be sometime around when version 1.5 (the new roadmap suite) of Mozilla is being developed before both run on the GRE and share memory.

#9 Re: So big ???

by minh

Thursday April 17th, 2003 11:54 PM

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Okay, with 7-zip I was able to compress that file to 7.70 MB (.7z). In addition, I made a 7-Zip self-extracting file (no installer) that was only 7.77 MB (.exe). For comparision, the original file was 23.1 MB uncompressed. That's ~2.5 MB less than Zip format.

Is that better? At least it gives you the impression that Thunderbird is smaller.

*How do I convince the developers to use 7zip format instead of the Zip format. That would save users downloading time and lighten the server load a bit.

#12 Re: Re: So big ???

by bzbarsky

Friday April 18th, 2003 12:23 AM

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By pointing them to an easy to install command-line tool that does 7-zip compression, would be a good start...

#13 Re: Re: Re: So big ???

by minh

Friday April 18th, 2003 12:48 AM

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<http://www.7-zip.org/>

7-Zip does support command line functions. It is in the help file. I don't have a clue how to use command line though. I'll stick with my GUI (7-Zip Gui sucks more than Mozilla, but it is adequate).

#18 Re: Re: Re: Re: So big ???

by bzbarsky

Friday April 18th, 2003 10:37 AM

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A GUI is not acceptable for scripted automated builds. Do you think the nightlies are zipped up by hand?

#20 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: So big ???

by minh

Friday April 18th, 2003 2:36 PM

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I think you misunderstand. Within the 7-Zip software package, 7ZFM.exe is the version with the GUI. In addition the package also contains 7z.exe which is a command line version. Both of them share DLL.

#27 Z-zip commandline

by CeeJay

Sunday April 20th, 2003 4:49 AM

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For Zip compression 7-Zip use the same switches as most other zip compressors. For 7z compression it gets more complicated as 7z allows you to compress data into several different ways. It is however well described in the helpfile that accompanies 7-zip.

I made a batchfile that compresses Thunderbird the same way as the GUI version of 7-zip compresses it if you tell it to use max compression and make a self-extracting archive : ( I have Thunderbird installed in C:\Program Files\Mozilla.org\Thunderbird\ and 7-zip installed in C:\Program Files\7-ZIP\ )

c: cd "c:\Program Files\Mozilla.org\" "c:\Program Files\7-ZIP\7z.exe" a -sfx7zC.sfx Thunderbird.exe -r Thunderbird\* -mx

The resulting file was 7.77mb

If you also include a FTP upload script and then you could in one step archive and upload the Thunderbird package ready for download. I guess you could go even more advanced and make a scipt that builds Thunderbird and scedule it to run each day. This way everything would be done automaticly.

#28 Re: Z-zip commandline

by CeeJay

Sunday April 20th, 2003 4:52 AM

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Something happend to my newlines. Let me try again :

c:

cd "c:Program FilesMozilla.org"

"c:Program Files7-ZIP7z.exe" a -sfx7zC.sfx Thunderbird.exe -r Thunderbird* -mx

#30 Re: Re: Z-zip commandline

by minh

Sunday April 20th, 2003 2:04 PM

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Thanks for the info. I was not born in the DOS generation so I have very little knowledge of command line. Now all we need to do is to get a Mozilla developer listen to us. ASA! ROSS! HYATT!

BTW, does 7-zip command line version work on linux?

#10 Re: So big ???

by minh

Thursday April 17th, 2003 11:54 PM

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Okay, with 7-zip I was able to compress that file to 7.70 MB (.7z). In addition, I made a 7-Zip self-extracting file (no installer) that was only 7.77 MB (.exe). For comparision, the original file was 23.1 MB uncompressed. That's ~2.5 MB less than Zip format.

Is that better? At least it gives you the impression that Thunderbird is smaller.

*How do I convince the developers to use 7zip format instead of the Zip format. That would save users downloading time and lighten the server load a bit.

#22 Duh, chicken or the egg first?

by skeeter

Saturday April 19th, 2003 7:43 AM

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Hello All

Here are my measurements on Win XP PRO

The Mozilla 1.4a that is 13 megs of a zip file and is about 30 megs packed out. This then is the bundle news, browser, chatzilla, calendar and SVG with MATHML GDI

Phoenix is around 7 megs in a zip and about 12 megs packed out. Browser only of course. Well I also like to write emails and visit news groups so, I put in the T-Bird which is the email spin off like F-Bird. It is 10 megs to download, zip file, and about 24 megs packed out.

Also, Mozilla with everything; 30 megs on the disk. F plus T Bird; 36 megs on the disk, no calendar, no MATHML, no Chatzilla, no SVG However here at the Mozillazine forums talks are about the great breakthrough of mean and slank.

Right, I know one doesn't have to have both running a one time, however I seem to have my mail open at the same time that the browser is open.

So let's look at the usage of RAM In browsing mode only with Mozilla, about 28 megs are loaded into the ram and then with mail open also it sometimes goes up to 33 megs.

F-Bird alone is around 16 megs into ram by start and this is the good news, however T-Bird seems a little more bullish and comes in with about 26 megs into ram at start thus in my normal mode of using browser and mail well you can do the math.

Oh well, I started with Mozilla back when there was no mail, except if one edited the prefs.js and put in their own pop3s ect. But this time I'm just going to wait for the Mom % Pop version. I am just to busy to turn the clock back start over again.

#23 Re: Duh, chicken or the egg first?

by bandido

Saturday April 19th, 2003 7:54 AM

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For a biologist, there is no question, the chicken was first. Chicken by definition reproduce by laying eggs. Species are defined in terms of the individual. The means of reproduction emanate from the individual, not the other way around.

From the religious point of view (at least Judeo/Christian/Muslim) the chicken was first too. God created all animals not the eggs from where the animals came from ;-)

#26 Re: Duh, chicken or the egg first?

by Ascaris <ascaris1@att.net>

Saturday April 19th, 2003 8:21 PM

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The egg was first. In the simplest sense, there were eggs (insects, dinosaurs, etc) long before there were chickens.

Secularly, and if you mean eggs containing chickens, then the egg was again first. Evolutionarily, there has to be a line where one would separate the proto-chicken from a de facto chicken. Thus, wherever that line is placed, there will be a point at which a proto-chicken lays an egg containing a chicken. At the point just before that egg is laid, there will be no chickens (only proto-chickens)... but that egg, when laid, will represent the world's first chicken, once hatched. Thus, the chicken egg (defined as an egg containing a chicken) came before the first chicken.

#24 FB: 0.5, TB: Pre-0.1 [nt]

by tve

Saturday April 19th, 2003 9:09 AM

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no text..

#2 "half man, half bull" - ?

by JBassford <jasonb@dante.com>

Thursday April 17th, 2003 8:03 PM

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Something tells me that the "proverb" that the project uses no longer makes sense with the new name and should be changed...

#5 haha [nt]

by joschi

Thursday April 17th, 2003 10:00 PM

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no text

#16 But...

by irve

Friday April 18th, 2003 4:17 AM

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I think it's kinda of a cute gesture to the old bullheaded beast.

#29 Re: "half man, half bull" - ?

by Xandrex <alexandre.ho_xdxmozillazine@m4x.org>

Sunday April 20th, 2003 11:15 AM

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JBassford noticed :

>Something tells me that the "proverb" that the project uses no longer makes sense with the new name and should be changed...<

maybe change the definition to : "neither phoenix, nor firebird" ? :)

#14 Whatever happened to the 8-year-old?

by sl8r

Friday April 18th, 2003 1:43 AM

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Where's Blake Ross in all this? Did he finally go to college? His blog's dead, I can't find any recent checkins of his on bonsai, and no mentioning of him in the thunderbird pages. What gives?

#15 Re: Whatever happened to the 8-year-old?

by dave532

Friday April 18th, 2003 4:14 AM

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Last time he was seen was in the phoenix forums: <http://www.mozillazine.or…rums/viewtopic.php?t=7952> Hey all, there are some exciting changes ahead for the Phoenix project. When they take effect, I'll probably jump back in the game and start working again. Stay tuned. -Blake

So he was probably talking about Mozilla going primarily with Phoenix and the change to Firebirdô - so hopefully he'll be back soon.

lz

#17 Re: Re: Whatever happened to the 8-year-old?

by dave532

Friday April 18th, 2003 4:37 AM

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of course I meant the last time he was seen *by me*! He's probably posted the odd comment here and there since then.

lz