Phoenix and Minotaur to be renamed Firebird and Thunderbird
Monday April 14th, 2003
Asa Dotzler writes: "After months of discussion and further months of legal investigation, we're finally comfortable moving forward with new names. The new name for the Phoenix browser is 'Firebird'. The documentation and product strings will be updated soon. In addition to securing Firebird, we've also got the OK from those contributing legal resources to use the name 'Thunderbird' for a mail client. Hopefully this will be the end of naming legal issues for a while."
Monday April 14th, 2003 6:38 PM
Monday April 14th, 2003 6:58 PM
So can we expect Waterbird and Airbird for IRCChat and Composer?
#12 Re: Great
Monday April 14th, 2003 9:12 PM
Rainbird Icebird Sunbird Snowbird
Onix!!!!!!! -- okay its not a bird, but I like it!
#3 Sorry, but "Firebird" is taken
Monday April 14th, 2003 7:21 PM
Firebird is taken. It's the name of an open-source database management system (http://firebird.sourceforge.net/). Hardly fair, or original of the Mozilla team. Firebird might not be competing in the same space, but you wouldn't want to see a database system called Mozilla, would you? Did anyone ask the Firebird database team whether they minded? Hijacking somebody's name certainly is bad table manners in the open-source world.
#4 Link, again
Monday April 14th, 2003 7:23 PM
The forum screwed up the link, so here it is again: http://firebird.sourceforge.net/
#5 Re: Sorry, but "Firebird" is taken
Monday April 14th, 2003 7:25 PM
That's not a browser. It is perfectly legal for the same reasons Ford and GM can't do anything about using these names.
Monday April 14th, 2003 8:44 PM
Anyway, there are only so many nouns in the english language... Unless we could name it a verb or adjective such as Speeder and Stellar
#18 "That's not a browser"
Monday April 14th, 2003 11:38 PM
Neither is Phoenix BIOS.
GM can't name one of its trucks after one of Ford's cars. The field of use of an infringing product name does not have to be *identical* to a trademark but just close enough to cause confusion. Compare "substantial similarity" in copyright law and "doctrine of equivalents" in patent law.
#21 Re: "That's not a browser"
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 12:27 AM
Phoenix's BIOS wasn't the issue. They have their own browser that can be used from the BIOS w/o having to boot the OS. This has been talked about plenty before. As stated above, they have legal advisors. Let's let them worry about these things.
This issue has been discussed ad nauseum and I'm happy that they finally have settled on something so we can all move on and be happy. I don't care if they named it crapzilla, surfzilla or (to continue the car and microsoft jokes) Internet Expedition. As Shakespeare put it "What's in a name? That which we call a rose. By any other name would smell as sweet." As long as its licensed the same and runs as beautifully I'll still love it.
#39 Re: Firebird SQL & Firebird The Browser :)
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 5:10 AM
Firebird is not a browser, but there are various database browsers for Firebird. Do we now have to ask what we are browsing before looking up some aspect of help??????
#23 Re: Re: Sorry, but "Firebird" is taken
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 1:11 AM
I don't think the original poster was necessarily thinking about legal issues. Firebird the RDBMS is a very well-established product with good name-recognition even outside its field AFAICT. It even has a similar history as Mozilla (it was born when Borland open-sourced its Interbase RDBMS). Heck, IIRC they even went through exactly the same legal battle over the Phoenix name which used to be their first choice as well. It's a bad idea IMHO to use such a name for yet another open source product even if it is playing in a different playground. I for once would definitely have to think about how to distinguish the two (wrt directory and menu names) on my system as I will certainly be using both.
#38 Re: Sorry, but "Firebird" is taken
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 4:58 AM
Please can every body play happy in the sand pit!!!. Just think of the publicity that the Firebird database team is going to get having there (please don't shoot me!) name taken....
#76 Database bigger than browser...
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 2:13 PM
Maybe a simple shift in naming of the browser is called for? Go with Firechick or Fireegg and Thunderchick or Thunderegg? ;-)
Or heck, with the Firebird DB being used to drive web sites, and Phoenix being used to browse them, maybe a bird-watcher reference? Firespecs? Fireboots? Firehat? Firelens?
#6 Re: Sorry, but "Firebird" is taken
Monday April 14th, 2003 7:26 PM
If they get as upset as you, then they can sue. Trademarks must be actively protected, and if they don't fight, then it is fair game.
#152 Re: Re: Sorry, but "Firebird" is taken
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 2:46 PM
Please, PLEASE don't tell me your sole basis for ethics it the law.
#28 Re: Sorry, but "Firebird" is taken
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 2:51 AM
Oh No! The two open source projects I am most invloved in is going to be called the same ! At least Phoenix wasnt another software project, that I know of or use.
I use Firebird( the database) all day long for work and for private use, now I have to say Firebird, the Browser, or Firebird, the Database all the time.
They have kept this quiet for awhile, to make sure namerights are okay, I would have thought they'd check a bit better. Firebird, the Database, may not have all its legal rights either, but why stamp on their toes?
#32 Re: Sorry, but "Firebird" is taken
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 4:36 AM
Well the FIRST result in google for 'firebird' was firebird database.... somebody didn't check very thoroughly I thinx. I don't thing the name should be used. Overloading of software product names is horrible for the user.
#187 Re: Sorry, but "Firebird" is taken
Thursday April 17th, 2003 9:20 AM
Exactly. Very bad manners IMHO.
"Firebird" meanwhile is commonly known as the name for the InterBase Open-Source successor.
A Database and a Browser are close enough to produce confusion. And therefore IMO it's not very wise either to capture this name owned by IBPhoenix.
I don't know enough on the Trademark Law issues in the US. Over here in Germany the situation would be _very_ clear: IBPhoenix would win any law-suit on this subject.
Rainald --------------------------------- Prof. Dr. iur Rainald Taesler FH Heilbronn University of Apllied Sciences Heilbronn/Germany
#195 Re: Sorry, but "Firebird" is taken
Wednesday April 23rd, 2003 4:24 AM
Hi I agree to this. Don't use Firebird, this name ist taken and double use of this name entail confusion... Nils Bödeker NBoedeker@ulmer.de
#196 Re: Sorry, but "Firebird" is taken
Wednesday April 23rd, 2003 4:24 AM
#7 Code names
Monday April 14th, 2003 7:36 PM
Will phoenix/minotaur (Firebird/thunderbird) be used as codenames? (Called "Mozilla" and "Mozilla Mail" in 1.5)
#27 Code names
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 2:23 AM
Good question. Does anybody knows?
#8 Automotive fetish?
Monday April 14th, 2003 8:26 PM
Firebird, Thunderbird, Camino? Is someone here a car fanatic? How about calling Composer and Chatzilla Mostang and Corvette?
Monday April 14th, 2003 8:46 PM
:-) I think it should be named: Volvo XC90, anyway :-)
#14 Re: Automotive fetish?
Monday April 14th, 2003 10:01 PM
And that would make IE... Pinto?
#16 Re: Re: Automotive fetish?
Monday April 14th, 2003 11:01 PM
> And that would make IE... Pinto?
No, Trabant... ( http://home.clara.net/peterfrost/trabant.html )
#20 Re: Automotive fetish?
Monday April 14th, 2003 11:54 PM
I would have thought Bluebird would fit the pattern better
Monday April 14th, 2003 8:49 PM
I was thinking about suggesting naming it the Pinto, but I decided that might not be a good choice ;-)
Monday April 14th, 2003 9:40 PM
For all the complaints that people made over the Chimera name change, I think Camino is better than both of these.
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 7:27 AM
I disagree. The El Camino is a horrid automobile. At least these are good cars.
Monday April 14th, 2003 10:05 PM
Any great artists want to take a stab at creating the new logos? http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=202059
We also probably need an icon set.
#17 Re: Logos
Monday April 14th, 2003 11:11 PM
netdemon, stop soliciting artwork on our behalf. If we need it then we'll ask for it. Right now we don't need it and we don't need another bug filling up db space with a bunch of people attaching splash screens and icons and all that jazz.
#19 Chill, Asa...
Monday April 14th, 2003 11:46 PM
Jeesh. You could have said that without such an attitude... We all appreciate your years of hard work w/Mozilla, but it seems (1) slamming overly excited members of the Mozilla community is a bit harsh and (2) excluding people w/language like "OUR behalf" and "if WE need it" (my emphasis) isn't helpful either.
#22 Re: Chill, Asa...
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 1:02 AM
Waldo, what you said is true in general, but doesn't quite apply in the particular case of Netdemon. I suggest you peruse his bugzilla activity carefully for good examples of how to annoy every single developer, staff member, and triagger who works on the project, over the course of years. So yes, he is very much in the "other camp" -- the camp of people that are wasting everyone's time and not contrubuting anything useful to the project. Hence the "our" and "we" usage in Asa's post.
How's that for attitude, eh? ;)
#61 Re: Re: Chill, Asa...
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 10:46 AM
Boris, such trolling is totally inappropriate. You can follow the list of improvements I have done to Mozilla, including helping with the versioning system. I find your response extremely self-centered, arrogant, lacking insight, and inappropriate. I see it as nothing but a personal attack, showing your lack of character and undeserved feelings of importance. The project would be just fine without you, and you aren't needed.
#65 Also.. Notice.
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 11:10 AM
You also might want to notice the improvement of quality of contributions that has occured over the years since 1999. Start with the fact that my first bug reports were naively useless. Of course, back then no one really knew much about Bugzilla except the insiders to the project, and after Christine Begle talked to me, I didn't file any bugs such as "Kill IE", etc. Any attempts to use that as an example of annoying developers in the present is feeble. I might as well talk about how few contributions Boris did when he was 4 years old. Its irrelevant. Look at my recent activity.
#66 Re: Re: Chill, Asa...
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 11:12 AM
I am a developer, and I don't annoy myself. Therefore, "every single developer, staff member, and triagger" doesn't hold true. Another blanket statement.
#63 I suggest
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 11:03 AM
I suggest you go listen to Boris as an example of how to sound arrogant, judgemental, and not back up your blanket statements with facts. I have worked on this project for years, and have contributed a significant amount of my time and have done a lot for the project. The main thing he is speaking about is my conversations on IRC, but he is simply showing his lack of tolerance. Within the past year and further, I haven't done anything on Bugzilla to waste people's times, and although some bugs I have filed might be unecessary in some people's opinions -- they are usually valid, and are useful in most cases. Some, such as the "Mozilla donations" bug I filed, have legal issues to sort out before being persued. It doesn't make them irrelevant. On the other hand, bz's attitude has angered and alienated a lot of outside people on Bugzilla and newsgroups. His personality is what I consider militant, and stems from arrogance, insecurity, and power hunger. Yet, a lot of things I have been talking about for a long time that Mozilla needs -- such as documentation -- are lacking, and none of the main developers are doing anything about it -- thus shunting their responsibility. Boris says he is interested in documentation, but I haven't seen much from him in the two years he has known enough about Mozilla to write it.
It boils down to the fact that there are a lot of politics in the Mozilla project -- of which I don't play part in, yet Boris does. Yet, in the end -- he and others are just alienating themselves. I guarantee that as time goes on, a lot of the main developers will move on, yet I will still be around.
#73 Re: I suggest
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 12:10 PM
As you may have noticed, my post was supposed to sound "arrogant and judgemental". You're right that I'm showing my lack of tolerance, but my tolerance has evaporated over the last two years as more and more of my Mozilla time has been wasted on useless wanking about in bugs.
I would be interested to see a case where I've alienated someone whom I was not intending to alienate.. (and yes, there are times when I will intentionally try to alienate someone; "jtk" is a good example).
During the two years we speak of, I've been finishing college, applying to graduate school, holding down a job, doing Mozilla development, doing bug triage. All that said, your judgement that I knew enough to write documentation is incorrect -- it is only in the last 3-4 months that I've understood the parts of the codebase that I'm working on documenting well enough to document them.
And yes, I think you're right. The "main developers" will get tired of the crap associated with this project and move on. And you will still be around. And then what?
#83 The project will continue
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 4:00 PM
And I've had my own life to deal with, also. I don't get paid for what I do on this project, and the least people can do is at least give me credit. How would you like if someone said you don't do any work on the project, that all you have done is waste peoples' time? Let's imagine that Stuart Parmenter said that about you. Would you like it? I do realize you go about bashing each other in your blogs, but then again I'm a bit more sensitive than a lot of people.
> And yes, I think you're right. The "main developers" will get tired of the crap associated with this project and move on. And you will still be around. And then what?
And the project will continue. Its a lot bigger than the few main developers. I'm sorry I can't work on it more than just 6 hours a week, but that's the reality of life. To say I do nothing is unfair, at best. This project has hit a point where it has gained a lot of support, but needs to change quite a bit. I have been pushing for this for a long time, and I'm finally glad it happened.
I also congragulate you for finally getting to the point you are capable of documenting. Perhaps with the help of your documentation, I can get to the point where I feel comfortable doing it also. Up until now, though, I've wanted to but don't know enough about the inner workings nor have the time to sit there and figure it out. The time I have spent has been fixing bugs on a broad range of the source code. Because of that, I have never gotten familiar specifically with any component to write documentation for it. I could certainly fill in a skeleton documentation, though.
#89 Common ground is needed
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 4:34 PM
>As you may have noticed, my post was supposed to sound "arrogant and judgemental". You're right that I'm showing my lack of tolerance, but my tolerance has evaporated over the last two years as more and more of my Mozilla time has >been wasted on useless wanking about in bugs.
The wanking does slow down the project, but it is because no one can come up with something that at least appeases all parties interested, so the issues are tossed and turned in an endless chaotic soup where nothing ever gets accomplished. That is why, for instance, I was pushing for an abandonment of UI for most but the most commonly used prefs, and simply improve the transparency of the hidden preferences to make sense for the average user. This is not getting rid of the prefs, but means we don't have to worry about the space issues in the UI window. Its also not UI, but at least exposes the hidden preferences for the average user. Its a common ground -- and that's what we need to find in a project like this. A back and forth arguing besides two polarities will never solve anything. What is left to do is clean up the hidden preferences, and document them.
We have to accept in a project such as this, the middle-of-the-road solution is usually the best recourse. That means no one will be totally satisfied except your basic middle-of-the-road person. As an example, removing preferences totally because of a utopian belief that a perfect UI needs no preferences is not middle-of-the-road. Nor is putting in UI for every preference, especially since it slows down the project. We need middle-of-the-road solutions. When a common ground is met, the need to bash and alienate people is unecessary. If people are really driving you crazy, communicate with them privately instead of openly (through email, etc) and let them know what is bothering you. Its also necessary for module owners to put up FAQs and status updates explaining their views and reasons for doing certain things, and not just rely on Bugzilla, IRC, or newsgroups. Such would have been fine 3 years ago, but the project has grown, and there needs to be a better method of communication.
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 4:57 PM
I'm in no way saying that the main developers (like you) aren't important. What I'm saying is that some need to realize that there is a community of people beyond themselves.
#93 Re: Also..
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 5:10 PM
Oh, I realize there is a community. I was an active member of it for a good long time, and I still try to keep up with things when I can....
#96 Re: Chill, Asa...
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 7:01 PM
I think Asa was just trying to stop the prospect of a repeat of something like the splash screen bug. Something I remembered about after his response. :-/
#105 Re: Re: Chill, Asa...
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 11:23 PM
Yes. I was. And calling for slashdot and mozillazine readers to spam Bugzilla bugs with dozens of attachements of artwork that we haven't asked for and aren't likely to use which will no doubt turn into a big flamewar is neither useful nor desirable.
#118 Re: Logos
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 3:37 AM
Surely as far as Phoenix goes the existing graphics will still work? The logo on the help:about screen is a flaming bird which would work equally well for a piece of software called either Phoenix or Firebird and there are some very widely used icon packs for it that would also work equally well, even though these may not fit in with the obvious end goal of having distinct, yet obviously related graphics for the two products.
Although as Asa says (a little strongly perhaps, but still true) there is little point in adding hundreds of splash screens/icons/logos to bug reports.
When it comes to something as potentially emotive and extremely visible as icons and logos everyone has a slightly different idea how they should appear, and there is never going to be any answer that is absolutely 100% correct, so this is one situation where the "benevolent dictator" controlling many open source products needs to step in and make a decision.
This decision may be unpopular with many contributors and pundits but a decision "from the top" is the only way to bring about change in emotive topics such as this where people can debate the differences until the cows come home, and is the reason why nearly every open source project has someone (or a tightly controlled group of people) who have the final say. In our case it is the Mozilla.org staff (and Netscape/AOL have a large influence mainly due to the number of major contributors who are on their payroll, obviously other large scale contributors also have an influence) for OpenOffice.org it would be their foundation (with Sun having a large influence) and for Linux it would be Linus (along with some of the other major controllers).
In the end Firebird and Thunderbird are open source products, and there are easy mechanisms for substituting your own graphics for those officially provided in your own copies, these are even documented on many web pages. If you feel very strongly then you could even fork the products and distribute your own version with the modified gaphics (although this would be a pretty petty thing to fork the tree over).
#24 Firebird <-> Thunderbird
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 1:32 AM
Aren't they way too similar? I think it's hard to see the difference between the names firebird & thunderbird for some people.
#30 Re: Firebird <-> Thunderbird
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 4:33 AM
100% agree. The two names are so generic and similar that i KNOW I will have a hard time differentiating them.
For the record: I'm not fond of the new names. What do "fire", "thunder" and "birds" have to do with browsing and e-mailing? It's also so uninspired.
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 5:31 AM
Well let's see:
Firebird is just another name for Phoenix. Thunderbird makes it easier to relate to Firebird.
And what do Gecko, Mozilla, Opera, Camino, .... , have to do with browsing?
#47 uh huh...
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 6:56 AM
what do "pages" have anything to do with a "web"?
#133 Re: Ahem
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 9:00 AM
Make them Thunderbird and Thunderfish and set everybody happy.
#25 All Thunderbirds are go...
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 1:34 AM
maybe someone's a fan of Lady Penelope and Co?
#97 Does this mean we ared "GO!"
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 7:26 PM
Will Thunderbird come to the rescue of the software world?
Maybe Lady Penelope could be the model for our new logo _>if ASA doesn't have some new logo Complaint? :)
#26 Firebird <-> Thunderbird
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 1:45 AM
#29 Firebird SQL & Firebird The Browser :)
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 3:11 AM
We don't mind if both are distributed under the same name . Yes there will be some confusion but i think people understand de difference between two ... Let's see what is the response of the firebird team ...
#36 Re: Firebird SQL & Firebird The Browser :)
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 4:47 AM
As a long term Interbase user who now uses Firebird, I had enough trouble getting all the documentation updated for that change. I WAS intending to use Mozilla as the default browser for the help system in place of Netscape, but a change of name to Firebird means that it simply to complicated to manage the documentation for TWO packages with the same name. SO I will have to stick with the current version of Mozilla, or find somthing that is not confusing.Heck the customers have enough trouble with W98, W2k, NT and XP without adding to it!
#71 Re: Firebird SQL & Firebird The Browser :)
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 11:56 AM
I'm not member of Firebird RDBMS engine developers team, just member of Firebird Foundation http://firebird.sourceforge.net/ff/foundation/ Friends, do we really need conflicts with installers, directories, environment variables, registry entries etc? Do we need troubles with users who are sure icon=program?
#100 Re: Re: Firebird SQL & Firebird The Browser :)
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 8:42 PM
I highly doubt the MozFirebird icon will look anything like the dbFirebird icon, so you're fine.
#115 Re: Firebird SQL & Firebird The Browser :)
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 2:21 AM
I do mind.
To much confusing for users ! Why make it more difficult then necessary by choosing a name that's already in use by another open-source project.
#119 Re: Re: Firebird SQL & Firebird The Browser :)
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 3:43 AM
Like the Firebird BBS project which has online documentation going back to 1999?
#134 Re: Ahem
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 9:04 AM
if you cared to provide a link then everybody would have seen that the project you mention is in Chinese. But then, if you really cared you would have googled Firebird and settled on another name.
#141 Re: Re: Ahem
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 11:38 AM
"if you cared to provide a link...."
http://www.firebird.org.tw/Copyright.html http://www.manac.com.au/Prod/FireBird.html http://www.greatfreeware.com/Network_and_Internet/Misc__Networking_Tools/3894.html http://financialfirebird.com/mortgage/services/tour.htm http://viracocha.sourceforge.net/fb.php http://www.planetnintendo.com/nindb/arc_space-firebird.shtml http://www.andywhittaker.com/projects/FireBird.htm http://www.wurb.com/if/game/86 http://www.if-legends.org/~adventure/Firebird_Software_Ltd.html
That other software product Firebirds exist and that many of them pre-date either the Mozilla or RDBMS projects is not in doubt. The good news is that none of the others are web browsers and none are RDBMS so it's unlikely that they will be confused's with the Mozilla or RDBMS offerings.
I highy doubt that google didn't have a single Firebird software product hit when the RDBMS project picked its name. It is, however, quite likely that none of them were database related and so there wasn't a problem.
#31 Why not stick with Mozilla?
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 4:35 AM
I think we have already a great name with Mozilla, so why not call the browser component 'Mozilla Browser', the mail client 'Mozilla Mail' and the whole thing 'Mozilla Suite'. This would also stress the more component oriented way that the project is about to take.
#33 Re: Why not stick with Mozilla?
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 4:41 AM
Mozilla Web (or Internet) - Mozilla Browser - Mozilla Mail - Mozilla Calendar - Mozilla IRC
Mozilla Office - Mozilla Write - Mozilla Calc ... etc
#34 (OT) Why are paragraphs merged into one line?
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 4:43 AM
Why are paragraphs merged into one line?
i had the previous list of Mozilla Web components each on their own line. Kinda Sux! :(
#35 Re: Why not stick with Mozilla?
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 4:45 AM
The browser component could also be called 'Mozilla Surfer' (not to confuse with the Butthole Surfers) or 'Mozilla Web' but always with Mozilla as the main name, because it has established already.
#37 Why not stick with Mozilla?
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 4:48 AM
I totally agree. Mozilla.org don't really do much 'promotional' work for their browser but changing name would destroy years of brand recognition that has now started to become, and ever more so, quite respected in the industry. Just as people are starting to wake up to Mozilla - the name changes. Doh!
Keeping Mozilla makes so much sense. Mozilla Mail is something people will immediatly recognise as 'the cool mail client their friend uses' or 'the same mail client *they* use' even....
Also with the Browser etc...
#45 Re: Why not stick with Mozilla?
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 6:28 AM
'I think we have already a great name with Mozilla, so why not call the browser component "Mozilla Browser"'
Wouldn't AOL-TimeWarner have some issues with people using their trademark. I think the name 'Mozilla' is owned by Netscape. The only reason Mozilla is allowed for the development version is that it will always be considered a development version.
#75 Why not Mozzy?
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 1:18 PM
On chatzilla, in articals at this and that net, the cuddly name Mozzy pops up everywhere. Just think of it. The name is there in everyones mind -- Mozzy Browser, Mozzy Mail ect:
I've even added this to the splash screen, you know - the real one -- the fire throwing Mozzy. And yes, I'm using 1.4a, but I still having 'MY MOZZY' spitting FIRE.
#40 "Firebird the DB server" or "Firebird the browser"
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 5:12 AM
So I will have "Firebird the browser" and "Firebird the database server" on my PC. Strange, don't you think?
Both products are excellent, but "Firebird the database server" is a stable product (now it is shipping the 1.5 version), while "Firebird the browser" is a 0.6 version... so why mozilla.org staff decided not to consider this?
#101 Re: "Firebird the DB server" or "Firebird the browser&q
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 8:45 PM
Actually, once Firebird gets put into the Moz trunk, it will come out as Firebird 1.5 (since we are on Moz 1.4a), right? Yay, even more confusion.
#107 Re: Re: "Firebird the DB server" or "Firebird the
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 11:28 PM
I doubt it would ever be called "Firebird 1.5". More likely "Mozilla Firebird 1.5" or "Mozilla Browser 1.5".
#113 Re: Re: "Firebird the DB server" or "Firebird Br
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 1:24 AM
" doubt it would ever be called "Firebird 1.5". More likely "Mozilla Firebird 1.5" or "Mozilla Browser 1.5". Yes and we can distribute Both In the same Installer FireBird 1.5 (The Database ) + Firebird 1.5 (The Browser) Firebird Database Server is only 3MBytes And we have a embeded server of about 700k . PS: You know i just kidding :) but this shows how confused people will be when they will have two installers with the same name :FirebirdSetup.exe and FirebirdSetup.exe (Please choose the right version ....)
#120 Re: Re: Re: "Firebird the DB server" or "Firebird
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 3:44 AM
You're assuming the installers would have the same name. I'm not. I'm assuming that the Mozilla installers would have the word "mozilla" in them.
#130 Yes we gonna use Mozilla word too
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 8:55 AM
We gonna use the mozilla word in the setup too .. The next Version of the Firebird SQL server will be named Mozilla 1.6 (nice :) )
By the way why don't you use the MySQL name for the next Mozilla split browser ? It is NOT used by many (open source ) projects and it is TM free Why not Oracle or MSSQLServer ... That is a better name for a Browser ....
#135 Re: Ahem
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 9:09 AM
Fine with the word Mozilla. Get that other word out of the name and everyone's happy. Why insisting on using a name which a) is badly chosen b) users don't like c) steals the name of another open source project? It escapes me.
#142 Re: Re: Ahem
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 11:46 AM
"Fine with the word Mozilla. Get that other word out of the name and everyone's happy. Why insisting on using a name which a) is badly chosen b) users don't like c) steals the name of another open source project? It escapes me."
There's no theft here any more than the Firebird RDBMS using a name that was already in widespread use (even within the software industry, and even in use in open source projects) when they picked it. Firebird is not at all uncommon. Google turns up thousands of hits on the word, the overwhelming majority are not the RDBMS and many of them are software projects. Where's your concern for the open source bbs project that had the name first? But I don't think there's anything wrong with the RDBMS using a name that was already in widespread use because they were the first database system to use the name and it wasn't hard to distinguish it from the other products and projects already using it.
#148 every name is taken.
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 1:08 PM
if you pick a common word as your project name, you are going to have to share it. this is just reality. people really need to calm down about it.
a funny story: i have a web project i created called "ultra 9000 advance" ... it turns out that there are several existing products called "ultra 9000" .. .a paid of headphones and a pool cleaner robot. do a google search for it, its kind of amusing.
#188 Bad behaviour to capture a name already in use
Thursday April 17th, 2003 9:37 AM
If names are taken, they are taken ;-) And the existing name has priority. That's the basics of Trademark Law.
And inb the case given, the two products are too close together. There's no problem if it was a car or a washing machine. But a Database and a Browser are playing on the same field. So he comes later has to respect the property rights of the name-owner.
IMO it's a really bad deed to capture the name of a very well known Database which meanwhile has a very good reputation.
----- Prof. Dr. iur. Rainald Taesler
#41 You may use
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 5:28 AM
Zoomshorts as the browser name and Zoomshorts Mail as the mail client name...way too catchy. Or simply name any and all OpenSource project "Firebird" and then you would have a universal name. Hey Bob, what IRC client do you use? "I use Firebird, what else?", or better yet, Yo Bob, what office suite do you use? "I use Firebird, naturally." Failing that, lets all change our names to Frank. That way we can all have "Frank" discussions in any topic.
Yeah, mod me down...
#43 Stupid names!
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 5:47 AM
Firebird and Thunderbird are simply the lamest names I have ever heard! You might aswell have called them "Master of the Universe" or "The Return of Hulk" It is very hard for me to take these bird names seriously!!!
#74 Re: Stupid names!
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 12:36 PM
At least for Firebird RDBMS name have sense - it's predecessor InterBase was near to be killed by Borland and revived by volunteers as Firebird. After this Borland changed their line and started to strive some efforts on support of their own closed source InterBase branch.
#44 Product Names
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 6:11 AM
As these are just product names, they will presumably be fully refered to as 'Mozilla Firebird' and 'Mozilla Thunderbird', just as you would 'Microsoft Internet Explorer'?
#46 Re: Product Names
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 6:43 AM
Good question, and so we just need an answer :)
#54 Re: Product Names
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 9:26 AM
Yes. We have the Mozilla Firebird browser and the Mozilla Thunderbird email client.
#77 Re: Re: Product Names
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 2:23 PM
Wouldn't that have been a good solution to the whole Phoenix naming problem? I know that OpenOffice.org has wanted everyone to use the name OpenOffice.org as an adjective, rather than just refer to OpenOffice, because of legal issues. http://www.openoffice.org/FAQs/faq-other.html?JServSessionIdservlets=t215439lw1#7 (see #7 and #10) Wouldn't it have been okay to call this browser Mozilla Phoenix?
#50 Very cool
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 7:29 AM
I believe I even suggested Firebird back when it was announced the name had to change. I really like Firebird, and I think T-bird is a great complement.
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 8:24 AM
I don't understand all this story with renaming etc. Why not to keep Mozilla name and make "Mozilla browser" with optional comonents such as "Mozilla Mail", "Mozilla JS Debugger" etc
(old fashioned Mozilla can be renamed to "Mozilla Internet Suite" or something)
#52 Re: Why?
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 8:34 AM
Ok, I se changes on Mozillazine.org forums. It says now Mozilla Suite, Mozilla Firebird (Browser), Mozilla Thunderbird (Mail) That's ok with as long as firebird is used only as a browser codename bu I prefer to call it Mozilla browser (without birds :)
#53 Well of Creativity Running Low
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 9:03 AM
Who came up with these names? Did they have to take the name of an existing open source database? It's not ok to take names from commercial ventures, but it's ok take from other open source projects simply because they don't have the resources to sue you.
Is it so difficult to come up with creative names that Mozilla has to resort to stealing? Someone can do better than this.
#55 Re: Well of Creativity Running Low
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 9:34 AM
All we need is a ./ story about phoenix aka *bird aka *Mozilla Browser* new name . I think there will be some good names from there . At first i was mad that Mozilla developers stolen the *bird name for our database . Now i think we have calmed down and we wait ... Maybe is good maybe is bad . (it's good because the name *bird will be more known , *Bad* because some people will cofuse the two) .
#56 firebird.com coincidence ? :-)
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 10:12 AM
I just went to http://www.firebird.com/ and after the intro, you get to a page with a "Phoenix" logo. Just thought people might be tickled by the coincidence (the page is dated 30th November 2002, before you suggest it's only just been put up). And, no, the www.firebird.com site has nothing to do with the newly-named Firebird browser of course...
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 10:12 AM
what? no firezilla or thunderzilla?
#58 Asa - I think this name choice is asinine!
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 10:21 AM
Well, as has been pointed out Firebird is already in use by a well known open source project. Even more incredible is that the Phoenix browser project is so close to the Phoenix database project's process to choose the name Firebird. Since I have interests in Firebird (the database), I'll continue to see it as the real Firebird and this Firebird (the browser) as Mozilla.
When Phoenix and Minotaur where stand-alone and separate from the Mozilla suite, it made sense to pursue name changes that would eventually result in their unique "brand recognition".
Mozilla has already achieved "brand recognition". When it was announced that Phoenix was replacing the Mozilla browser in the roadmap starting with 1.4a (instead of continuing on its own path), Phoenix should have taken on the name Mozilla Browser and Minotaur should have become Mozilla Mail.
Delibrately destroying your "brand recognition" is an asinine marketing move and anyone who works in marketing will tell you that. Yipee! Five years to get to a decent release with name recognition in the media, now we get to start all over again. Stupid is the kindest thing I can say for this announcement.
#60 Re: Asa - I think this name choice is asinine!
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 10:41 AM
I have to agree. Thunderbird and Firebird should be nothing more than codenames, like Merced was to Itanium.
#59 good names and nothing to do with a car
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 10:37 AM
I case that someone has not that much fantasy, just trust your subconscious, it might get it.
So my first choice would be THUNDERBIRD & BUTTERFLY
#103 Aiyaiyai, I'm your MSN butterfly
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 11:05 PM
"Butterfly: wind for communication, beautiful, colorful, lightness, each message a butterfly"
Not butterfly. The word butterfly to me brings up images of MSN, and a browser called "butterfly" would be confused with the IE-based browser on the MSN 8 CD.
#160 Also StarOffice 5.2 and OpenOffice.org
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 6:00 PM
StarOffice 5.2 has the purple butterfly and OpenOffice.org has used it, too. OpenOffice.org now has gulls.
And it's not very nice of you, karlhp, to have exactly the same message here three times. I guess you should have clicked the submit button only once.
#62 good names and nothing to do with a car
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 10:56 AM
I case that someone has not that much fantasy, just trust your subconscious, it might get it.
So my first choice would be THUNDERBIRD & BUTTERFLY
#64 good names and nothing to do with a car
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 11:06 AM
I case that someone has not that much fantasy, just trust your subconscious, it might get it.
So my first choice would be THUNDERBIRD & BUTTERFLY
#67 Why not just Mozilla?
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 11:22 AM
When they replace the all-in-one Mozilla will the components then have separate names? That seems like it would be pretty confusing. Why not Mozilla Navigator, Mozilla Mail, etc?
#68 I hope the splash logo looks something like this
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 11:22 AM
(cues the soundtrack from Dazed and Confused)
#79 Re: I hope the splash logo looks something like th
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 2:34 PM
mathowie, when posting links in this forum (not the other forums that you access from the right-side navigation bar), you just type the URL in, without (X)HTML code or angle brackets. So, the correct link is: http://junk.metafilter.com/firebird.gif .
#99 Again copyright issues
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 7:48 PM
Isn't this logo too close to the one cpyrighted for use by th car.
BTW I vote for the names to be Mozilla Mail, Mozilla Browser, Mozilla composer, etc.
We have a strong brand name recognition with the name Mozilla. Why begin with a new name few recognize. Can you imagine the confused look on users' faces if I suggest they download Thunderbird and Firebird if they wnat a new browser and Mail. For many Mozilla would be a recognized name. Less confusion using Mozilla. For the life of me I cannot remember if Thunderbird or Firebird is the browser. The names are too similar.
#106 Re: Again copyright issues
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 11:27 PM
"Mozilla" certainly isn't going away. We'll either be calling the actual product (as distinct from the project/bugzilla/developer name) the Mozilal Firebird browser or possibly even Mozilla Browser. We've never planned on dropping the "Mozilla" from the name. We're very proud of that name.
#116 Re: Re: I hope the splash logo looks something like th
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 2:25 AM
If you guys decided to be obstinate with Firebird name, there is fine logo to take at http://firebird.sourceforge.net/.
#69 oops, fixed.
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 11:23 AM
I hope the splash logo looks something like this http://junk.metafilter.com/firebird.gif
(cues the soundtrack from Dazed and Confused)
#70 Firebird is taken by BT as well...
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 11:45 AM
Firebird was a software label operated by BT in the 80s, releasing products such as, uhh, Chimera:
Remember, this is the company that claims they invented hyperlinks.
#72 why not mozilla?
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 12:05 PM
As I understood and as the product logo implies, Mozilla is something like a monster, somehow heavy, clumsy. Is this the right message to convey? I find there is nothing interesting on the name "Mozilla" itself nor does it convey any positive or appropiate message.
#78 stupid name... Whats wrong with keeping MOZILLA?
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 2:28 PM
I dont see what the problem was with keeping Mozilla instead of taking a more common stupid name that is from cars, other open source programs, etc.
Real original guys.
You shoulda just kept it being called Mozilla Web Browser, and Mozilla mail, or somethng
#80 Why not...
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 3:16 PM
why not just name it "Phoenix Browser" and "Phoenix Mail" :P if there's a copyright for the name "phoenix", just attach the "browser" word at the end :P
#108 Re: Why not...
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 11:30 PM
The problem, as I understand it, is that Phoenix Inc. actually makes a Web browser. Two different browsers named Phoenix causes consumer confusion.
#156 Re: Re: Why not...
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 4:48 PM
thanks for the info, asa :)
#82 CONFUSION increased!
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 3:47 PM
So we have now two famous Open Source projects: FireBird and FireBird. Nice to add confusion, well done! >:-< Is it so difficult to choose a not taken name?
#110 Re: CONFUSION increased!
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 11:36 PM
"So we have now two famous Open Source projects: FireBird and FireBird. Nice to add confusion, well done! >:-< Is it so difficult to choose a not taken name?"
Make that three open source projects (at least). Don't forget the Firebird BBS project. Looks like they've been around for a while. And don't leave off the freeware/shareware projects like Firebird T-Sync (NTP client for win32). Oh, and don't forget about the other commercial applications and organizations like the Firebird Mortgate Application or Firebird Software Ltd.
What do all these products and organizations have in commone? They all (and probably many others) share the name Firebird and they are all computer software applications. What do they not share in common? None are making the same _type_ of software application.
#144 wow... good point.
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 12:01 PM
kinda takes the steam out of the bitching around here (including my own peanut gallery comment)....
my father once got dragged unwillingly into some political bullshit, a judge friend of the family called him up and gave him this advice about how to deal with public controversy:
"like gas, it will pass"
#164 CONFUSION Increased!
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 6:59 PM
> Make that three open source projects (at least). That makes confusion increase again, yes.
> And don't leave off the freeware/shareware projects like Firebird T-Sync More again.
> Don't forget the Firebird BBS Even more
> "like gas, it will pass" Tell it to registry keys, installer names, google help searchs and so on. "Firebird" name mistakes will be there just because a not taken name was chosen.
> Is it so difficult to choose a not taken name?" That question has not been answered because of obvious reasons. Choosing a not taken name solves this problems.
#84 Why not "firebird" in another language - Hopi ?
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 4:09 PM
It is a bad idea to rename the Mozilla browser to a name already taken (Firebird), giving it a bad name in the open source community. I'm sure their lawyers are right it's _legal_, but is it _moral_? And with all the localization projects going on, why did they have to choose an English name? OK. Phoenix is Greek (I suppose) - and taken. Firebird is English - and taken (whether the lawyers see it or not). But there are many more languages to pick from! I wonder... what is the firebird called by the Hopi in Arizona?
BTW, what about "mockingbird"? Is that taken too, or...
#87 firebird in navajo or cherokee?
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 4:27 PM
Hey, this is a good idea, no Navacho, Hopi, Cherokee, Apache or Sioux around here? I only know the name in German, Firebird would be called "Feuervogel", well, definitely unusable.
#181 Re: firebird in navajo or cherokee?
Thursday April 17th, 2003 5:49 AM
Well... It is unusable for you... But for german people Firebird is unusable too... Try to choose a name easy to pronounce not only for english speakers...
#88 firebird in navajo or cherokee?
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 4:28 PM
#111 Re: Why not "firebird" in another language - Hopi
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 11:42 PM
All names are taken. Firebird was taken by a software company that makes video games nearly 20 years ago. It was taken by a company that makes financial (mortgage) software. it was taken by a BBS software community. It was taken by a shareware/freeware win32 NTP client. Were Firebird BBS people or the Firebird Software Ltd. people or the Firebird T-sync developers inflamed when the Phoenix database people renamed themselves to that "name already taken"?
#132 Naming the Firebird DBMS
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 8:58 AM
The Firebird database system was never called Phoenix. It is a fork of InterBase which was released as open source July of 2000. Had we heard from other Firebird product, we would (I trust) have changed the name.
#143 Re: Naming the Firebird DBMS
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 11:56 AM
"The Firebird database system was never called Phoenix. "
OK, maybe I'm mistaken. I've seen several mentions of Phoenix in relation to the RDBMS. It even appears in some URLs related to the project. Slashdot also reported (one year ago yesterday) "A lot has happened since Borland open sourced their Interbase database. Borland has since come out with a new closed source version of Interbase, forcing the Phoenix group to fork the codebase, calling their new database Firebird." I guess I was confused about product and group or project names.
#85 Mozilla Mail/Browser
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 4:18 PM
Calling it Mozilla Mail and Mozilla Browser is either original nor does it sound very nice. However, if Firebird is already in use in other projects/products then I agree that this name is by no means an option. But I also think that the browser and email client would deserve a better name than just this boring mozilla or any other monster name.
#86 Mozilla Mail/Browser
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 4:18 PM
#90 Maybe Valdore... Or perhaps Moya?
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 4:38 PM
Well, I suggested "Firebird", too. || The problem now is that there already is a "Firebird", but the Phoenix name does associate itself with fire. Maybe fiery discussions about its name and of course past and future namesakes. || I could also suggest a "Basilisk", which is a lizard-like animal puffing fire. Oh hea, if creativity is really low, I could then suggest d'Deridex, Valdore, Scimitar, Romulan and Klingon Birds of Prey and Romulan and Reman Warbirds. Moya would be good: it would pay homage to Farscape and then Moya is a woman's name, too.
#91 Whiners: Note!
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 4:51 PM
Firstly, Firebird and Thunderbird are fine names by me.
Secondly, if they're not fine names by you, there's nothing you can do about it. Oh wait, you can bitch about it, but that's about it.
Thirdly, these names went through AOL legal, so there's no "oh the DB guys can't sue that's why you're using it". AOL legal would not have approved these names if there was any potential for legal problems no matter how small the group that used the name.
Lastly, yes, the names need to change from "Mozilla" Look at the Apache project. There are like dozens of apps that are now under the Apache "brand", not just the Apache Web server. They need different names to differentiate projects from one another. The whole revolution of GRE boils down to this: "throw out the everything-and-the-kitchen-sink-app". That being done as it is, the different apps that will result NEED to have different names to AVOID, not CAUSE, confusion. Oh, and Navigator is a Netscape name, not Mozilla, and I'm glad to see it go back to Netscape.
Honestly, as a result of all this, I would not be surprised to see the return of Netscape Navigator (right now it's buried in the "everything-and-the-kitchen-sink Netscape version of the everything-and-the-kitchen-sink" Mozilla), and I can hardly wait. Those who might say "Well you can install just the browser"; well sort of, but it's not truly just Navigator. Navigator will be the first version of Netscape to not include Gecko if the proper GRE is already installed on the user's system.
Anyhow, that's my two dollars.
#95 Re: Whiners: Note!
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 7:00 PM
Whether it's legal or not is not the point. It's sleazy. It's unethical. It's distasteful. You couldn't have possibly done the most nominal of searches and not seen it, which means it was a conscience decision. I for one have lost a lot of respect for the Mozilla today. Shame. Shame on you!
#94 Guaranteed Fix
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 6:31 PM
Rename them to Thunderbrowser and Thundermail. It's not very inspirational, but the names aren't taken and the functionality is obvious.;)
#102 Protecting Mozilla's Open Source Cred...
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 9:57 PM
Asa Dotzler has no comment to make on the theft of the Firebird mark, except to say that he and his lawyers are "comfortable" with it. Clearly his lawyers have advised him that the *real* Firebird project has no money (we are, after all, volunteers producing software for free distribution) and thus not a risk for a lawsuit. Isn't this horribly reminiscent of the kind of corporate bullying that spawned the OSI, after all?
Be assured that we of the *real* Firebird Project ARE incensed about this filthiest of dirty tricks, launched without warning by a crowd which has pretensions to being "open" in the broader sense espoused by the OSI. This is not a "free and open" tactic in any sense except that by which felons believe others' property is "free for the taking" and "a glass door is always open".
So, Asa Dotzler is "comfortable" with stealing our mark. Is he also "comfortable" with the near-certainty that RedHat, SuSe, et al., the Linux distributors on which the marketing position of Mozilla products depend, will be unwilling to risk a trademark dispute by deploying these products with their distros?
We of the *real* Firebird are proud of our product and devoted to our branding. Our marks are not there for the taking, as Asa will discover, to his and Mozilla's severe cost. The law is on our side: we have nearly three years of widespread international use of our mark. All Mozilla has is an application to use it, which will surely fail if taken to court. If Asa's lawyers failed to point that out to him, then he should ask them for his money back.
The heart of this dispute is not "legal comfort", however. It's the doing of this dirty deed in the heartland of open source, where we are all supposed to be above such things. If Open Source is to win, we can well do without brother cynically stealing from brother. The easy route will be for Asa to quickly unwind what he has wound up and pay us the courtesy of an apology. The hard route will be Mozilla to proceed with this and lose its Open Source cred and goodwill.
How hard is that choice, Asa? How much do these things matter to Mozilla?
Helen Borrie Firebird Project Admin http://firebirdsql.org FirebirdSQL Foundation founder and committee member http://firebirdsql.org/ff/foundation/ Firebird technical developer and author
#104 Re: Protecting Mozilla's Open Source Cred...
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 11:19 PM
What about the "real" Firebird BBS open source project that's been around since at least '99? What about the very "real" Firebird Software Ltd.? What about the "real" Firebird Mortgage Application Software? What about the "real" Firebird NTP client? These are all real software projects with real products. There are lots of Firebird software projects that predate both Mozilla and the database project. What there aren't are other Web browsers called Firebird and other database servers called Firebird. Mozilla isn't a database server and you all aren't a BBS software package, and NTP client, financial software or a video game.
As far as other distros shipping Mozilla-based products, I suspect most of them will continue to call the browser they ship "Mozilla".
#154 Re: Re: Protecting Mozilla's Open Source Cred...
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 3:53 PM
I rather thing you are isting a whole bunch of extra reasons not to use Firebird...
#155 Re: Re: Re: Protecting Mozilla's Open Source Cred.
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 4:17 PM
ITYM reasons not to use Firebird as a name. But in fact Asa's responses have given me reasons not to use firebird as a browser.
It's very nice software, but konqueror (my primary browser on my laptop) is getting pretty good too, and the KDE people know to play nice with other open source projects.
Asa couldn't have not known of firebird the database (if you type "firebird" into the phoenix/firebird URLbar, that's what pops up), and he knows about all these other firebird software projects too. To knowingly steal that name was evil.
#158 oh grow up. [nt]
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 5:51 PM
#159 Gimme a break
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 6:00 PM
By your exact argument, Firebird SQL should not exist.
#189 Re: Re: Re: Protecting Mozilla's Open Source Cred.
Thursday April 17th, 2003 10:27 AM
That's to take up with the firebird SQL people. It's not a justification for mozilla taking the name too.
This could have been a mistake, what annoys me is not the deed but the lawyerese justification for it.
Anyway, what's so hard about coming up with an unused name? Mozilla, Netscape, Linux, Gimp, GTK, Postgres, Pentium, were all names that didn't exist in any dictionary earlier. (True, you can still have clashes like mozilla/godzilla, but that's very different from choosing the exact same name as another open-source project.)
#112 Re: Protecting Mozilla's Open Source Cred...
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 12:34 AM
And what about the Virococha and Firebird project at sourceforge? http://viracocha.sourceforge.net/fb-shots.php I suppose that's not a "real" firebird either. What does it take to be a "real" firebird? Would Virococha & Firebird or Firebird BBS be a "real" firebird if they accused all the other firebirds out there of "stealing" and "dirty tricks"?
#117 Re: Re: Protecting Mozilla's Open Source Cred...
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 2:36 AM
Asa - are you trying to defend your incomprehensible action by throwing up a minor games project which came to life just 6 months ago? Are you going from bad to worse by arguing that two wrongs make a rignt?
Don't be trivial. Just do what you know you have to do, go into damage control mode and mend the fences you have broken. Fast, please.
#121 Re: Re: Re: Protecting Mozilla's Open Source Cred.
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 3:53 AM
"Asa - are you trying to defend your incomprehensible action by throwing up a minor games project which came to life just 6 months ago? Are you going from bad to worse by arguing that two wrongs make a rignt? "
Did you miss my post one level above or was it just convenient to ignore it in favor of the less substantial one?
And the not so minor BBS project which has been around at least as long as 1999? And the Firebird Software Ltd gaming company that pre-dates all of the popular open source projects? It's not our intent to cause confusion or to see fences fall into a state of disrepair.
None of the projects or products that I listed (including the RDBMS) committed any "wrongs" and so there are not "two wrongs to make a right". There are more than a handful of Firebird software projects. There have been for many, many years, pre-dating both of our projects. None of them share the same space. If people aren't confused between a database and a bbs server, they shouldn't be confused between a web browser and a database system.
#123 Re: Firebird SQL & Firebird The Browser :)
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 6:14 AM
But they will be confused between the Firebird Database Browser and the Firebird HTML Browser. I don't see that any of the other 'options' you have thrown up have that DIRECT conflict of interest.
#127 why to argue?
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 8:22 AM
Is it really necessary to compromise the Open Source idea with some Microsof-like actions?
Does the advantage of the well-sound name cost the disadvantages from stealing this name from your brothers-in-arms from the OS camp? At least the fact that Firebird SQL developers and users are confused with this action must make Mozilla managers to decide choosing another name. Do not think on layer's point of view, think on the conflicts of names, people, programs...
Firebird is recognized now as free open source RDBMS, which intends to spread it's usage and popularity because of it's unique to the OS DB market abilities. Despite of MySQL it is free for commercial applications. It has transactions at the core engine level, rich trigger and SP language, it is records versioning SQL server, it supports SQL-99, it runs on different platforms as Win, Linux... Are you going to interfere with it's evolution?
Is it too difficult to choose other than Firebird name for Mozilla browser for now?
#146 Re: why to argue?
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 12:12 PM
The name isn't "Firebird". It's the Mozilla Firebird browser or, simply Mozilla Browser.
#172 Re: Why start name-confusing between os-projects ?
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 9:17 PM
Dear ASA, please calm down, the more you try to argue, the more mistake it might be.
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 10:59 PM
he seems perfectly calm and reasonable especially considering the massive organised spam campaign that was organised maliciously against him today.
#125 Re: Protecting Mozilla's Open Source Cred.
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 6:45 AM
You wrote: " And the not so minor BBS project which has been around at least as long as 1999? And the Firebird Software Ltd gaming company that pre-dates all of the popular open source projects? It's not our intent to cause confusion or to see fences fall into a state of disrepair."
Let's take these in reverse order - Firebird Software Ltd seem to date from the 1980's. They are not a registered UK company and do not even show up as a dissolved company. In fact they seem to belong entirely to the 1980's.
The Firebird BBS project is alive and well. But it is a pity that you forgot to mention that it is in CHINESE and based in ROC.
If you knew full well about both the above facts it seems that you conveniently omitted them. This is disingenuous in the extreme. If this comes as news to you then it appears that your research is poor, bordering on the inept.
For someone who claims to be a Mozilla advocate your actions this week are doing the project a great dis-service.
Let's face it. There is only one open source software project called Firebird and it is not yours.
#145 Re: Re: Protecting Mozilla's Open Source Cred.
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 12:08 PM
" The Firebird BBS project is alive and well. But it is a pity that you forgot to mention that it is in CHINESE and based in ROC. "
What does nationality have to do with it? Google certainly turns up enough Firbird documentation in English that it's kind of hard to miss what it is and what it does. It's pretty obvious from this google hit http://www.firebird.org.tw/Copyright.html that they pre-date the RDBMS and that they're an open source project. A little more searching and some babelfish will tell you that they're quite successful.
"Let's face it. There is only one open source software project called Firebird and it is not yours. "
Um, I'd wager that the Firebird BBS guys and the Viracocha & Firebird guys would dispute that. You're claiming that those are not open source software projects? Is it because they're not American that they're not open source? Suggesting that because one of the projects was Chinese that it isn't worth discussing and then excluding them from your definition of open source seeme at best confused and at worst racist. I was in Beijing last spring speaking at TsingHua University about open source and I can tell you that the audience there would vehemently disagree with your suggestion.
And speaking about omitting things, what about all of the others? http://financialfirebird.com/mortgage/services/tour.htm is certainly alive and kicking. http://www.manac.com.au/Prod/FireBird.html doesn't seem to belong to the 80s. My point is that the RDBMS was certainly not the first or only software or other computer related product to use the name. They weren't even the first open source project to use it. There's room enough for educational software, database systems, financial software, video games, and bbs servers with Firebird in the name. I happen to think that "Mozilla Firebird Browser" is probably the least likely to be confused with any of the other projects. I'd certainly be more confused between the names Firebird BBS and Firebird RDBMS than I would be between Mozilla Firebird browser and Firebird RDBMS.
#168 Confusion DOES exist, and arrogance won't erase it
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 7:22 PM
"There's room enough for educational software, database systems, financial software, video games, and bbs servers with Firebird in the name. I happen to think that 'Mozilla Firebird Browser' is probably the least likely to be confused with any of the other projects."
Asa, why do you refuse to admit that there is a possibility of confusion? Browsers and databases are frequently used in conjunction. Your arrogant "Mozilla will do whatever the hell we want, who cares about this other project with thousands of users that has been in active development for years?" attitude is not likely to settle this problem. Why is it so difficult to choose a name that is not already taken by a WIDELY used software project?
And really, what does "Firebird" have to do with web browsing, anyway? When I hear "Firebird", I think of the RDBMS, and maybe cars, but not browsing the web -- I have always associated that more with water/surfing metaphors, the Galeon browser being a good example of this.
#137 Mozilla SQL support
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 11:10 AM
It seems to me that the recent addition of native SQL support in Mozilla makes the legal situation a little less clear.
#153 Re: Protecting Mozilla's Open Source Cred...
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 3:51 PM
I have allways been a devoted Mozilla fan and I have never before heard of Firebird SQL. However I wholehartedly agree with the Firebird community on this issue. This is NOT the open source way. If Mozilla continue with this course of action they will lose a lot of my respect.
#109 Symetry (sp?) is nice, but...
Tuesday April 15th, 2003 11:33 PM
I like the symetry of FireBird and ThunderBird, however they are a bit too kitz for me. And the database FireBird project seems to be a bit perterbed (rightfully so). The success of open source depends on the support of other members of the open source community; this does not bode well. I know everyone would like to get this over with quickly, but perhaps a name submission competition (perhaps I missed that; all too likely)? As to creating an original name, we are in a lot of trouble, just look at the domain issue. And to add to an earlier comment, I think most of the people managing the project have english as their first language, so it's quite likely that english words are the first that come to mind. However the relation between the names could be valuable. Perhaps another combination such as Thor and Odin, or Anubus and Set, or..., there are a lot of possiblilities out there.
#114 Why start name-confusing between os-projects ?
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 2:10 AM
I really don't understand how they could choose Firebird as name for their Browser. Firebird is already a good know open-source project and is already active from the year 2000. Was it so difficult to find a name that they decide to use the same as an existing one.
This is really going to confuse users when we going to talk about : Have you installed Firebird ? Which version are you using ? Directories ? Registry entries ? and more .....
#171 Re: Why start name-confusing between os-projects ?
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 9:07 PM
It is very disappointing the way mozilla respones to the topic. I do not know how mozilla supporters would feel if other company, say XX, use mozilla for their Office application. And they just say that XX mozilla is not the same as mozilla, and not make any confusion between office users or borwsers.
#174 Re: Re: Why start name-confusing between os-projec
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 10:52 PM
Mozilla is not a English word like Firebird. There are not already multiple Mozilla applications and open source projects. Firebird is a common English word and is being used by a large number of software applications that seemed to be co-existing fine.
#177 Re: Re: Re: Why start name-confusing between os-pr
Thursday April 17th, 2003 1:34 AM
Yes, but I think the reason they could co-exist is that they only share very few users. While an RDBMS and a web browser are surely two very different applications, they are still very likely to be used by the same group of people. This is probably less likely to be the case with a BBS and a mortgage calculator.
All that said, I must say that the Firebird RDBMS community by its childish attack on the Mozilla people has just lost far more respect from me than Mozilla people lost for choosing the Firebird name. If there's anything you could accomplish by such acts it is only that the attacked will stand his/her/its ground even more fiercely even if they might have considered consensus in the beginning. You couldn't argue sensibly with your back against the wall for very long. There will just come a point where people will just close their ears and any sensible arguments will just drown in the hubub.
This is a sad day.
#180 Re: Re: Re: Re: Why start name-confusing between os-pr
Thursday April 17th, 2003 4:44 AM
Oliver, what do you name "childish attack"? Our appearance at Mozilla forums asking to don't use the name of our widely used RDBMS? We have'nt enough money to start court examination and want to use our very limited funds for more useful purposes. And we think such a question can be discussed and solved within Open Source family on unofficial basis. Our attempt to show Mozilla Admins that it is not caprice of one or two squabblers by publicing e-mails of them (taken from Mozilla site) to give users of our RDBMS easy way to express their opinion? It was made because of disregard of attempts of contact from our Admins. BTW, personally I consider Asa's arguments as reasonable too and don't think he or other Mozilla Admins wanted to hurt our project. But I have many users who I consult by phone and e-mail and want to avoid wrong answers to my questions "Do you have Firebird started?", "In which directory did you installed Firebird?", "What is your Firebird client software version?" etc for the rest of my life. I must say I feel a great respect to Mozilla Admins since they started poll yesterday, it is honest attempt to evaluate public opinion in more civilized way than our attempt to attract their attention by mail. I publushed link to this poll on our Russian Firebird Community forum and asked young and hot members not to breach of trust by attempts to vote many times. I agree with you about there will come a point where people will just close their ears being pressed by amount of opponents. Since dialog between our Admins is started, I think we should stop this discussion.
Best regards, Alexander V.Nevsky, Firebird Foundation voting member.
#182 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why start name-confusing betwe
Thursday April 17th, 2003 6:03 AM
"Oliver, what do you name "childish attack"? Our appearance at Mozilla forums asking to don't use the name of our widely used RDBMS?"
No, this is just the kind of behaviour I welcome. I was talking about orchestrated "mail-bombing" of Mozilla Admins that appeared to be taking place from what I hear. Maybe my impression is wrong but in some posts it sounded as if someone even set up a web form to allow people to send a prepared "petition" to Asa et al. I must admit that in the meantime I gathered some information that put all this a little bit into perspective and I probably would word that post less harshly now but I still think some of the things that seem to be going on on the FB front are inappropriate.
I'm completely with you with your concerns and I also wish for the Mozilla team to find a different name (see the first paragraph of my previous post). But accusing the Mozilla team of "stealing" and going on about "our name" is simply wrong. As Asa pointed out repeatedly, there are quite a few other projects sharing that name already (an idiotic argument to defend the name IMO but still a valid reaction to the theft charges). Theft is not the problem. The problem is (among others) that matters will get extremely confusing and complicated for users and especially for support scenarios like the one you quoted.
The argument that Asa and others recently started stressing that it will not just be "Firebird" but "Mozilla Firebird" is also bogus IMHO. This will only solve the packaging issues. I don't think a single person will go to the lengths of actually *saying* "Mozilla Firebird" out loud in any context other than for distinguishing it from the Firebird DB. I never heard anyone *talk* about "Mozilla Browser" either. It's just "Mozilla" to everyone. Further specification is only done when talking about "Mozilla Mail".
As the "official" dialog has now finally started I just hope it ends unanimously and with a real new name for Phoenix...
#184 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why start name-confusing betwe
Thursday April 17th, 2003 9:09 AM
"I must say I feel a great respect to Mozilla Admins since they started poll yesterday, it is honest attempt to evaluate public opinion in more civilized way than our attempt to attract their attention by mail."
Just to be clear, the poll was put up by this site, MozillaZine, (me to be precise) and not mozilla.org. We love the people at mozilla.org and get on great with them but MozillaZine and mozilla.org are separate entities (I'm guessing it's a similar deal with the FirebirdSQL Foundation and IBPhoenix).
#122 What about a Google search ?
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 5:18 AM
This is the FIRST result:
Firebird - Relational Database for the New Millennium Description: Official Developer Site with the complete sources. Category: Computers > Software > Databases > Firebird firebird.sourceforge.net/ - 22k - Cached - Similar pages
Even before than the official world-known Pontiac car web page!!
Furthermore a box on the right side (sponsored) says:
Firebird SQL Conference May 2003 in Fulda, Germany The most powerful free SQL Database www.firebird-conference.com
I think there is too much interest around the Firebird database project compared to the companies/products that Mr. Asa mentioned in his posts.
Please change your mind about Firebird name. I love Mozilla products and Mozilla name and I'd like to see a Mozilla Browser or Mozilla Navigator, a Mozilla Mail or Mailer, a Mozilla Composer, a Mozilla IRC etc.
Regards, Marcello Mannino
#124 EARK! Too english
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 6:15 AM
Do you think that not all the people on earth speak english and it would have been better to choose a name more "international". FireBird and Thunderbird are really difficult to pronounce for foreigner (in the languages I know: italian, spanish, french, german...)
#126 Lawfully, but not too friendly...
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 6:51 AM
Firebird the Browser well may be bullet-proof from the legal point of view. But in my opinion this decision violates some implied 'Good Neighbors Code' of the free software community, and it taints the community with seeds of conflict (unless Firebird is going to be just a codename for internal use only). As a minor stakeholder and minor contributor (I am a volunteer member of mozilla.ru localization team), I do not feel comfortable about this decision, and I'd feel much better if it was re-considered. To me, even Mozilla Browser would do better as a last resort. (Please note that I voice opinion of my own, not the one of the mozilla.ru team.)
Regards, Vadim Vinichenko
#129 Well said
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 8:47 AM
This move does not follow the "Good Neighbor Policy" that opensource projects use. People can point out as much as they want that legally this may be fine, but morally its not.
They should pick another name that is not also the name of a fellow opensource project. It doesn't even sound like they communicated with the Firebird database project before trying to do this, which pretty much shows they knew they were doing something wrong and just didn't want any problems.
IMO the line between software which browses the net and software which browses a database is NOT clear.
#147 Re: Well said
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 12:15 PM
"t doesn't even sound like they communicated with the Firebird database project before trying to do this"
We didn't communicate with any of the software projects named Firebird, even the handful of other open source or free projects. I wonder if the database people communicated with the other Firebird software projects before they used the name.
#173 Re: Re: Well said
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 10:28 PM
"I wonder if the database people communicated with the other Firebird software projects before they used the name."
Objection, your honour. Unfounded speculation.
#176 what's your point?
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 11:00 PM
because this just looks like trolling.
#128 does well-sound nome worth good name?
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 8:29 AM
Is it really necessary to compromise the Open Source idea with some Microsof-like actions?
Is it too difficult to choose other than Firebird name for Mozilla browser for now?
#136 I have to join the chorus of criticism.
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 9:47 AM
I realize renaming the project yet again will be a major hassle for the mozilla people, but stealing another open source project's name is grossly unfair. How would *you* feel if phoenix hadn't been under dispute, but then some open-source database project had come along to name themselves phoenix?
I'm disappointed with the response from the mozilla/phoenix team so far. This sort of arrogance ("it's a different kind of software so there's no confusion" ) does not bode well for the opensource world. Besides the argument is bogus anyway: plenty of free operating systems, from the BSDs to sundry linux distributions to others, are likely to want to package both and the name conflict *will* lead to confusions.
In the interests of community spirit and goodwill, please change this decision.
#138 All of this arguing is pretty pointless
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 11:12 AM
You know how many products and computer software share the same names? Yahoo Messenger and MSN Messenger are two software programs that come right to mind. They even do the same thing! Don't see Microsoft and Yahoo (among others that use the Messenger name) suing each other into oblivion or arguing about how the names are too similar. I could probably pull up many examples of software that isn't related but has the same name. When clearly labeled, what's the problem?
As long as the browser is always referred to as Mozilla Firebird and it is clear, what is the big deal? I don't see how anyone can confuse Mozilla Firebird with the database product named Firebird when the web browser is clearly labeled as Mozilla Firebird.
#139 causing confusion
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 11:37 AM
What if I did an email client called "Mozilla"? It's not in the same realm as a browser, but it would cause confusion in the public....plus dilute the brand (marketing 101). "Is Mozilla developed by Mozilla.org or foo.com? Which one?".
#162 Re: causing confusion
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 6:44 PM
The Mozilla suite already has an email client integrated into it, just click the little envelope icon at the bottom of any browser window, or select "Mail & Newsgroups" from the Window menu, and up pops the Mozilla mail component.
If you had even read the article at the top of this page before typing your knee-jerk response you would have realized that Phoenix/Firebird is only one of two Mozilla components being renamed, the other one IS a mail client now called Thunderbird!
In the end these are both just codenames used to distinguish the separate pasrt of the Mozilla suite, they are not the product names which will be the Mozilla Firebird web browser, and the Mozilla Thunderbird mail client. They are pretty hard to confise with any other product.
#165 read again.
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 7:01 PM
I think you completly do not understand what I'm saying. I've used Mozilla since the early m releases and I know about the mail client. I've read the article and thought about this for a few hours and the analogy to cars in the posts is off, I was trying to point out software-related. Obvously, you are drinking the Mozilla kool-aid and believe what ever is handed to you. People would get pissed if someone came out with a non-browser software called Mozilla and would probably resort to flames and nonsense to get that developer to change that name. It's exactly what the Firebird db people are dealing with now. They've taken it public and now Mozilla is looking like shit to a lot of people in the community. Get another name....call it Mozilla Mail, Browser whatever. But be your own Name, don't take one that's being used.
#170 Re: read again.
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 8:19 PM
"People would get pissed if someone came out with a non-browser software called Mozilla and would probably resort to flames and nonsense to get that developer to change that name."
Actaully, lots of people did come out with software with similar names to Mozilla. See GoZilla http://gozilla.com/index.htm and Ghostzilla http://www.ghostzilla.com/ (see also non-software things like Zilla sports http://www.zillasports.com/ and google for more). None of those are affiliated with the Mozilla project or mozilla.org and you don't see a lot of flames and nonsense coming from me.
But that's all beside the point. Mozilla is not a commonplace English word. It is only currently used in one specific area. Firebird, on the other hand, is a common English word and it's used all over the place on everything from guitars and automobiles to educational Math software and BBS servers. Before the Firebird RDBMS, there was some other software project that claimed the title of "most popular Firebird application" and that didn't stop the RDBMS folks from using the name. It's an English word with hundreds, maybe thousands of popular uses (it's even a famous ballet). That's a very different situation than a made up word like Mozilla. I'm all for avoiding confusion and I don't think that our names, the Mozilla Firebird browser and Firebird RDBMS are terribly confusing.
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 11:38 AM
So why do they have to use cheesy, meaningless names like T-Bird and F-Bird? "Messenger" is OK because it's common and descriptive and not a trade name. Why doesn't Mozilla do the same? What do all these random code names mean anyway? Why can't Mozilla ever develop "Mozilla Browser" and "Mozilla Mail"?? Jeepers!
#149 mozilla firebird
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 1:15 PM
To call the browser, or refer to as "mozilla firebird" is an illusion, it is either mozilla or firebird, it can't be both. I.e., if you are talking about the Safari browser, what do you mean? Does anyone need to refer to Apple? No!
It should not be difficult to find another name for firebird, there will be hundreds of other software products in the near future, do you think they will not find an appropiate name which is not already taken? They will, if they want!
A further name suggestion: MOZZAD & MOMA (mozilla mail)
#161 Mozzad not good
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 6:30 PM
By using some etymology, then Mozzad reminds me of Mossad, which is an Israeli secret service. While secret services work for their countries (and/or for those countries' governments), then I am sure there are people who oppose association/s with any secret service working for any country; for example Palestinians and Arabs know that Mossad is an Israeli secret service and they don't like Israel anyway. || So I'm proposing that the browser's name should stay apolitical and have no political associations to it. I wouldn't like a browser called 'KGB' or anything close to it.
#163 Re: mozilla firebird
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 6:47 PM
"To call the browser, or refer to as "mozilla firebird" is an illusion, it is either mozilla or firebird, it can't be both."
So how could Netscape make a product called Netscape Navigator and Netscape Communicator for years? Or Microsoft have a product called Microsoft Internet Explorer?
Mozilla.org will have a product called Mozilla Firebird, it's not a difficult concept.
#150 mozilla firebird
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 1:26 PM
A further name suggestion: MOZZAD & MOMA (mozilla mail)
#151 Mozilla should have integrity on this issue
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 1:34 PM
I have been using the firebird database since its inception and the amount and quality of the work by firebird members has impressed me greatly. They are I believe building a powerful tool for all programmers that over time will have the sophistication and power to improve the applications we create.
Now they want everybody to know their product's name, this will help programmers to find this fantastic tool and by more and more people finding out about it support, development etc will improve.
Deciding to use the same name will make it less clear when publicising the tool that this is the database product. Rather than stand out as a beacon pointing to the database - which one? or isnt that a browser? will be a more likely response.
I know choosing names is difficult but out of integrity and acknowledgement of the firebird team you should put more thought into renaming your product. Rising from the ashes is fine but not at the expense of such a sterling group of developers.
Mark Beachill Technical Director Britart.com
PS I dont normally go in for any of this - but this really is annoying.
#157 While we are talking about integrity (IBPhoenix)
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 5:25 PM
Lets bring up the fact that IBPhoenix Blatantly listed all of Mozilla.org staff's email just to induce tons of spam. Mozilla.org has the law on their side, just shut up.
#166 Re: While we are talking about integrity (IBPhoenix)
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 7:07 PM
ahh, brilliant. an open sourcer talking about lawyers. stallman would be proud
#167 Yeah, right.
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 7:13 PM
Because Mozilla.org has a policy of obscuring email addresses, right?
There seem to be a lot on this page... http://www.mozilla.org/owners.html
Anyway, what good are staff if they can't be reached?
#169 Re: While we are talking about integrity (IBPhoenix)
Wednesday April 16th, 2003 7:35 PM
IBPhoenix posted all of the email addresses to make it simple for people to contact the Mozilla staff. The email addresses were lifted directly from Mozilla's own public pages. If the spam-harvesters wanted them, they already had them.
If any of the Mozilla people contacted privately by members of the Firebird Project had paid us the courtesy of responding to messages sent on Monday, when this all blew up, much of the aggro would have been avoided.
I'm pleased to say that Asa Dotzler did contact the Firebird Admins privately a few hours ago, willing to start a dialogue. This is progress and we hope we can look forward to a satisfactory resolution.
Helen Borrie Firebird Project Admin http://sourceforge.net/projects/firebird
#178 My take on the whole thing...
Thursday April 17th, 2003 2:05 AM
To be honest, the Firebird/FirebirdSQL thing sounds like an honest mistake, not a deliberate attempt to take the name of another project. The error, as I see it, was retreating into the "it's legal, so it's OK" shell. Not attacking asa or anything, but I always saw the open source movement as being that of community. Whether or not it's legal shouldn't matter so much as whether it is ethical or very nice.
Really, I thought the name Phoenix represented the ideals of the project a lot more, rising from the ashes of its old self to be something new and fresh. Firebird doesn't really have that ring to it. I'm not much of a marketing genius, but I'm sure there are plenty of people with good ideas for names that better represent the project than Firebird. The name change is still fresh, so a second change, if done soon, would not mean all that much confusion.
It just seems like this has blown up into a problem larger than really necessary. I'm interested in hearing responses and critiques of my ideas, but please try to keep them nice, I don't want to turn a friendly suggestion into a flame-fest.
#179 My letter to email@example.com - Reasonable Reasons
Thursday April 17th, 2003 4:27 AM
I am posting a letter I sent to Asa Dotzler who I am worried may not be able to read or answer my letter due to the volume of mail and her lawyer's specious advice, in the hopes that this will help the Mozilla team to suck in some gut and make a brave choice to change to some other name not involving a flaming bird. May I also say right now congratulations and many thanks to BOTH teams. Little do they know it, but both teams might even benefit from using the other's code..
Subject: Reasonable Reasons for Mozilla not to use "Firebird" name
Sorry to bug you, everyone else is too I'm sure. I would like to provide a few clear reasons why Mozilla really should *not* be called Firebird.
1. It will be very confusing to users and even developers who want to for example automatically update packages in popular distros.
2. Mozilla would be hurting Firebird DB badly since they are not yet in RedHat for example, even though some people think Firebird is far more advanced than say PostgreSql or MySql. What happens when someone tries "apt-get firebird"? Obviously they will most likely get Mozilla, which means that despite your arguments, you are effectively locking them out. Sure it is possible for one team or another to gracefully rename their project to perhaps something slightly different. But they were there first!
3. Firebird (DB) people will have to invest a lot of energy into keeping people from being confused.
4. Regarding the suggestion that "nobody will be confused", his is disingenuous. Obviously you can have a database browser (to browse contents of the DB). And Mozilla's XUL could even be used to build it. Needless to say it is not unlikely that Mozilla might have some more visible data component in it than it already has, along the lines of Open Office's embedded HTML browser and Database browser. What if OO wanted to use Mozilla for its browser, and Firebird DB for its main DB? Just for an example. And many people use MySql for their own email, for example. If they used Firebird instead, how could you explain easily to people that your system is using the high power Firebird Database for email, and not the Mozilla new email client named Firebird (which presumably has some kind of data storage mechanism far inferior to the Firebird DB)?
5. Firebird DB people have already fought plenty of battles (with Borland). I have met Ann Harisson on her trip to Japan recently and was very impressed with her and her team's experience and vision. They don't deserve this bullshit. The Firebird project name is also a brand the recognition of which is a necessary tool to get users to differentiate between the (older, less improved, and buggier) Interbase codebase. The Firebird/Phoenix logo in one way symbolizes their resurrection of the code and careers of the developers. Mozilla does not have the same history. *Not incidentally*, the Mozilla team's idea of using a SYNONYM for another company's browser name (i.e. choosing "Firebird" instead of "Phoenix") is utterly hateful. Not only that, the main company behind the Firebird database is in fact called IBPhoenix!!! Do you intend to build your browser empire on the *ashes* of other companies???
6. While there are lots of companies which use the Firebird/Phoenix/Thunderbird name, Mozilla and Firebird are the two highest profile, most important open source projects, and there is a great danger of conflicts in all sorts of areas, for example they have the sourceforge site, and they also have a .NET driver. At the very least when you search for firebird and linux on google the search will be half as useful as it could be!
7. The Mozilla team threatens all open source projects with unspecified costs (in energy, time, money, and psychological well-being) in having to try and protect themselves and possibly incurring costs of hiring trademark lawyers. If Microsoft did this everyone would boo and boycott them. Has Mozilla become such a beast that you can throw your weight around like this?
8. If this works Bill Gates suddenly gets a new "divide and conquer" tactic, just make lots of similar sounding open source project names and fill them with broken, dead-ended, bad alpha code. Instead you have an opportunity to show that the open source community is has built-in defense mechanisms against this sort of thing.
9. Using the Firebird as the AOL browser name may confuse AOL users who could otherwise be introduced to the IBPhoenix's product. Newbies may not be able to differentiate between DB and browser, and certainly a corporate manager who has to make a decision may be led to believe the two projects are related.
10. The Mozilla team will be noted as lacking imagination to such an extent that they even picked a name that was already used by *another* open source project on SourceForge.
Thank you for your consideration of the above points. You still have the opportunity to reverse your arguments and possibly the Mozilla Team's decision. I urge you to use some other name not involving a flaming bird, not withstanding the (I believe BAD, though IANAL) advice of your lawyers. I also intend to bring this to the attention of the FSF's legal counsel this week and see what *real* lawyers have to say.
Matthew Rosin CEO, Telebody Inc. mattr at telebody dot com Tokyo, Japan
#183 Re: My letter to firstname.lastname@example.org - Reasonable Reas
Thursday April 17th, 2003 9:01 AM
Mozilla is not being renamed to Firebird. You, sir, are an idiot.
#185 Mozilla Firebird!!!
Thursday April 17th, 2003 9:15 AM
Once again, Mozilla itself isn't being renamed Firebird. The proper name for the web browser will be Mozilla Firebird. I am guessing that an RPM for this would have the name mozilla-firebird or moz-firebird or something along those lines, clearly distinguishing it from the Firebird database.
AOL won't use the "Firebird" name for its products, this is only a Mozilla name for the Mozilla web browser that is called Mozilla Firebird. Any company in the world who uses Mozilla's code will most likely name their web browser something else to avoid confusion with Mozilla's browser. For example, I assume the next version of Netscape will probably have its web browser called "Netscape Navigator" for old-times sake.
#186 Re: My letter to email@example.com - Reasonable Reas
Thursday April 17th, 2003 9:17 AM
"I am posting a letter I sent to Asa Dotzler who I am worried may not be able to read or answer my letter due to the volume of mail and her lawyer's specious advice"
You're not the first person to make this mistake but Asa is a he. For future reference, Mitchell Baker, mozilla.org's Chief Lizard Wrangler, is a she, though many assume that she is male.
The legal advice came from a major Mozilla investor that contributes legal resources to mozilla.org. Namely, America Online (I believe).
#190 instead of phoenix
Thursday April 17th, 2003 8:39 PM
First, Mozilla is good. And the Mozilla we've been accustomed to are "somehow" related to dinosaurs... Which leads me to: Recent Scientific American (March issue, I guess..?) featured an article about feathered dinosaurs... Several words were bouncing around in my mind: Mozilla. Godzilla. Dinosaur. Feathers. Bird. Firebird. Phoenix. And then I thought about the purpose of the move from Mozilla to Phoenix: to purify the Mozilla suite (with a trial by fire?), and from the ashes a Phoenix will rise. Let me suggest another logic: Re-think the Mozilla suite (by having a paradigm shift) and put feathers on the preconceived lizard-like dinosaur image. Now I see a bird-like dinosaur: featherMoz :) I think it's quite nice, because the word "feather" also had some association with "lightweight", which is (I think) what the Phoenix/Firebird developers are aiming for...
Just my 2 cents...
#191 instead of phoenix
Thursday April 17th, 2003 8:43 PM
Just my 2 cents...
#192 Once again...IT IS MOZILLA FIREBIRD!
Friday April 18th, 2003 7:20 AM
It is going to be called MOZILLA FIREBIRD. Not Mozilla, not Firebird, but Mozilla Firebird. Mozilla isn't going away.
#193 Well, there's always....
Friday April 18th, 2003 8:47 AM
Archaeopteryx! (For those of you who aren't aware, the archaeopteryx was the first bird; it evolved from the dinosaurs and is thought to have looked something like a pteradactyl with feathers.)
And yes, this *is* a joke.
#194 Sounds like MS
Friday April 18th, 2003 12:49 PM
This is the type of stunt that Microsoft would pull. I really hate to see this happen as I enjoy using Mozilla, but I think they made a bad choice here.
#197 Mozilla Firebird? Thats not gonna fly
Friday May 2nd, 2003 10:58 AM
Asa, if your argument for changing the name in the first place is because Netscape/AOL/TimeWarner owns the trademark and is telling you to change it, then your fooling yourself if you think they are gonna let you refer to it as "Mozilla Firebird". They are going to "clarify" their position and tell you that Mozilla can't appear anywhere in the name and legally speaking, they would be right. You have chosen to build your work upon and trust, to a certain degree, a massive company that many people believe is just as "evil" and ethically bankrupt as Microsoft. The simple fact of the matter is that ever since some big distros puclicly decided that there is no reason to ship Netscape when Mozilla is so much better, the corporate types decided that Mozilla as a brand was getting to big for its britches and had to be cut down a notch or two. Do they care if you end up with even more problems than before with the Firebird name? No. Brand confusion around the open source product will just cause more people to "trust" in the Netscape brand. Frankly, i am not going to "trust" the Mozilla Firebird brand and won't use any browser branded in such a way.
You are fighting for the hearts and minds of a developer community that believes in doing "the right thing". As evidenced by all the posts above, you are destroying that bond. The sooner you change the name to something original, the better. You are going to have to do it sooner or later so you might as well do it now. If you don't, you will regret it later.
On a more positive note, i took a few minutes and came up with some possible alternatives: Arroyo Plexus Cobera Mozul Zule Yacht Mackinaw Maximus
#198 Welcome Firefox 1.0
Wednesday January 5th, 2005 8:44 PM
I found this page on google searching for Mozilla Phoenix... very interesting. I didn't know this.
#199 Re: Welcome Firefox 1.0
Sunday September 18th, 2005 8:22 AM
Yeah, crazy stuff, huh?
But now that we've got Firefox, a name with no recognizable relationship to browsing or reincarnation, there's no more brand confusion, because the only other item I can think of is some '80s Clint Eastwood movie. Hard to confuse with a web browser, I s'pose.
#200 car names
Thursday December 4th, 2008 5:07 AM
I think Firebird, Thunderbird, Camino are all names of car. But then again Firebird and Thunderbird are good names.
#211 Re: car names
Saturday December 13th, 2008 8:25 AM
That is pretty lame way to build back links JackieBhen ;) LMFAO I think Camaro or Lambo would be a good browser name ;) But they are cars also or how about a browser called hummer.