Phoenix 0.2 Release Set for Tomorrow

Monday September 30th, 2002

Blake Ross writes: "The Phoenix team is targeting a 0.2 milestone for tomorrow, October 1st. Please bang on the nightlies. 0.2 will feature a ton of new stuff, including a replacement for Mozilla's Form Manager, a redesigned Sidebar, a redesigned Download Manager (available as a Sidebar panel), improved toolbar customization (you can now add space and flexible space and a bunch of new buttons), an add-on manager, and a new search/find-in-page bar. Importing of bookmarks has been fixed, too."

Before filing bugs, take heed of Blake's advice: "If the issue seems obvious, we probably already know about it! For example, yes — we know that many of the new buttons are missing icons in some or all modes. We are desperately in need of an artist."

#1 moz 2.0

by jilles

Monday September 30th, 2002 2:47 PM

I'm starting to get the feeling all the interesting development has transferred to phoenix. Are any of these goodies going to land in the 1.x series of Mozilla?

Anyways, keep up the good work :-)

#2 Re: moz 2.0

by AlexBishop

Monday September 30th, 2002 2:56 PM

"I'm starting to get the feeling all the interesting development has transferred to phoenix. Are any of these goodies going to land in the 1.x series of Mozilla?"

Within the last few hours, the Quick Search Bar for the Bookmarks Manager and the Bookmarks Sidebar tab have been ported to Mozilla. See bug 162542 (it's not checked in yet).


#8 Re: moz 2.0

by djcovey

Monday September 30th, 2002 6:39 PM

It cettainly does. I think its great remember that whatever get added to pheonix can be moved into mozilla. I like the sound of the addon manager and a more flexible sidebar along with improved form manager all sound like great idea's. Cant wait to see what it looks like when they release.

#11 Re: moz 2.0

by bzbarsky

Monday September 30th, 2002 7:26 PM

You mean "all the interesting UI" development, right? Because most of the interesting development is non-UI and hence shared by the two projects automatically.

#26 Re: Re: moz 2.0

by djk

Tuesday October 1st, 2002 6:37 AM

Yeah, I think he means 'interesting UI'.

It's a shame that the backend doesn't get the same glory as the UI. People expect it to 'just work', and only tend to notice changes in the UI. It makes sense because, well, it it the _User Interface_, but a shame nonetheless.

I've been following a few DHTML perf bugs recently, and _that_ backend work _is_ visible. I'm seriously impressed by the recent improvements.

#18 moz 2.0

by oliversl

Tuesday October 1st, 2002 12:22 AM

I'm starting to get scared :-( I will vote to fix the trillion MailNews bugs before starting a new proyect. Thats because I use MailNews as my primary mail reader program

#31 Re: moz 2.0

by mbokil

Tuesday October 1st, 2002 3:48 PM

Man the phoenix UI is coming along nicely at a fast pace. The drag and drop toolbar icons are really nice. I like the way the download manager now is placed inside the sidebar. Seems like a logical use for the sidebar. I couldn't get type ahead to work though :-(

The launching speed of the browser window is excellent. If XUL can be this fast why is Mozilla's UI so slow?

If Phoenix is using the Mozilla runtime is it possible to use Phoenix to run Mozilla mail without running the runtime that comes with Mozilla?

Lastly, does this increase in speed demonstrate that design by large committee is less effective than design by a small group of experts? ;-)

#3 typeaheadfind removed?

by neil

Monday September 30th, 2002 3:22 PM

it seems that typeaheadfind has been removed? any confirmation on this?

#21 Re: user interface

by Balboa

Tuesday October 1st, 2002 2:57 AM

It still works for me, in the 30-Sep-2002 16:56 Win32 build

#4 What's this new form manager thing?

by neva

Monday September 30th, 2002 5:15 PM

What's the difference between it and the one in Mozilla right now, out of curiosity? Phoenix is starting to look pretty nice. If I didn't use Mozilla for my email, too, I'd put some serious consideration into trying it. :)

#15 Re: What's this new form manager thing?

by seymour

Monday September 30th, 2002 8:54 PM

Phoenix is good enough that I switched back to using Mutt for my email, until Minotaur is ready to use :)

#5 Standard question

by Salsaman

Monday September 30th, 2002 5:31 PM

Can you run mozilla and phoenix side by side ?

#6 Re: Standard question

by nicka

Monday September 30th, 2002 5:49 PM


#12 different profiles

by fitz

Monday September 30th, 2002 8:15 PM

Different profiles stored in different places, at least on Windoze ...

#29 How about..

by jonik

Tuesday October 1st, 2002 10:00 AM

Is it safe to share a bookmark file between Mozilla and Phoenix? (By using symlinks or a user.js entry.)

#7 How fast is .2 compared to .1?

by rcmoz

Monday September 30th, 2002 6:07 PM

And is the sidebar stuck on the left or can it be placed like Chimera's?

#9 Bloat?

by pbreit

Monday September 30th, 2002 6:46 PM

Pnoenix already seems to be getting too bloated. Wasn't the goal to develop a browser without all the bloat of Moz? Does anyone actually use the Sidebar, download manager, add-ons, bookmark manager, toolbar, etc? I know I sure don't. If they could keep the feature-set under control, we might get a browser that could be utilized by AOL.

#10 Re: Bloat?

by Blake

Monday September 30th, 2002 7:09 PM

This comment doesn't really make any sense. Let me break it into its nonsensical components and address each:

* Does anyone actually use the sidebar? Yes. If you used the history window, you'll now use the history sidebar, because the history window is gone (no bloat there, a trade-off). If you used the download manager, you'll now use the download sidebar, because the download manager window is gone (no bloat there, another trade-off). The sidebar itself was about 10 lines of code; this is not "bloat." When you start Phoenix 0.2, the first thing you'll notice is that you don't notice much new. A lot has been added behind the scenes, but the default configuration (that which most users will use) remains simple.

* You refer to add-ons as bloat; I don't even know where to begin here. What we're working on for Phoenix 0.2 is the /ability/ to install add-ons. The entire point of this is to /reduce/ bloat while still satisfying the greatest number of end users. If we didn't work on add-on support, we'd be including many add-ons in the default build -- and /that/ would be bloat.

* Phoenix isn't even halfway to 1.0. In any well-run project, you do the heavy lifting (new feature work, redesigns) at the beginning and taper off as you approach 1.0. We're still at the beginning.

* The fact that you will see Phoenix's build size decrease over the coming milestones as its featureset grows doesn't support your assertion that "Pnoenix[sic] already seems to be getting too bloated."

#13 getting faster, too

by fitz

Monday September 30th, 2002 8:18 PM

Plus, by my tests, it's getting FASTER! Yeah. Very nice work.

#19 sidebar vs windows

by masi

Tuesday October 1st, 2002 1:28 AM

Why I use the Mozilla seldom ist that the (current) tab panel headings take too much space. In my case 30% to 50% of the available space since I don't run the browser (or other apps) maximized (using a resolution of 960x720).

Plus the space availble for content is very small, so I like to have a real window which can easily be resized. Yes, you can resize the sidebar, but doing so will reduce the browsing area.

As for the downloadmanager. Well, it wasn't the best piece but it worked, but it is no real loss to see it buried in the sidebar (but space is also an issue here). What I want back is the little "popups" for each individual download :-) They reminded you of what aou were doing. You could easily determine whether a download had finished.

I hope that you have come up with some nice ideas to cover all these issues with one sweep. I am eager to see the results (waiting for 0.2) but I'm not convinced yet.

PS: I use only 3rd party sidebars, eg a CSS reference.

#25 Re: sidebar vs windows

by jsebrech

Tuesday October 1st, 2002 5:37 AM

You're obviously a mozilla person and not a phoenix person then.

#27 Re: sidebar vs windows

by masi

Tuesday October 1st, 2002 7:36 AM

I can live with that. As long as the phoenix person don't take the mozilla persons stuff away. :-)

I'm all for improving, cleaning and speeding up mozilla's ui, but don't start with removing features. Anyway, nobody is currently doing such a thing.

And I'll be a mozilla person cause I'll use Messenger and I like the 'bells-and-whistle bloatware'.

#30 Look into the Little Mozilla theme

by bmacfarland

Tuesday October 1st, 2002 11:19 AM

I have a similar issue where I like my content space to be big and my browser buttons small. Switching to the Little Mozilla theme got me so much space that I can easily use tabs. With mouse gestures, I could almost get away with getting rid of the navigation toolbar. I wish I could get rid of the status bar down below, because I really only use the Status part, not the lock, connected, or the shortcuts to open new browsers mail etc. I think I may break out the XUL book soon.

#14 Maybe im seeing this wrong but...

by ph1nn

Monday September 30th, 2002 8:37 PM

Should the moz team be looking at ways to make actual MOZILLA faster? Sure once it gets up and running and the page begins to load its snappy and quick. But there are a lot of other ways where it drags its feet...

For example when you click to load a new URL in IE5.5/6 the page BEGINS to load almost instantly, giving you the feeling of lightness and snappyness. In Mozilla its quick slow to start drawing the next page. Also opening new tabs, going to email, and other things are slow.

It just seems to me all these effort should be concentrated on improving whats already there, applying these things to mozilla itself before starting a whole new project.

again, maybe im seeing this wrong.


#16 Phoenix vs Chimera

by SubtleRebel

Monday September 30th, 2002 9:19 PM

My only disappointment with all of the good work going into Phoenix is that Phoenix is not Mac compatible. The explanation given for ignoring the Mac platform is that Chimera is supposed to be the Mac replacement for Phoenix; I never really understood that argument but Chimera's native GUI did provide advantages. However, at this point, it does not seem like Chimera is keeping up with the Phoenix advancements. Is Chimera going to maintain a parallel features with Phoenix?

#17 user interface

by macpeep

Tuesday October 1st, 2002 12:16 AM

What are the plans for the Phoenix UI in terms of visual appearence. The current icons (I last tried 0.1) are absolutely horrible.. Is the UI going to be skinnable? Is there any chance of getting a more... neutral... theme as the default?

#20 Re: user interface

by Balboa

Tuesday October 1st, 2002 2:44 AM

#22 New Problem- Sluggish Interface?! Moz And Phoenix!

by chrisc

Tuesday October 1st, 2002 5:09 AM

I've been moanig in various bugs recently that the nightlies seems extremely sluggish and slow to respond to user input (< bug 170928 for one). The latest phoenix nightly is particularly bad - what on earth is going on? is no-one else seeing this problem? no-one has so far mentioend this so I'm almost inclined to say it's my machine - but moz 1.1 works perfectly!

#23 New Problem- Sluggish Interface?! Moz And Phoenix!

by chrisc

Tuesday October 1st, 2002 5:11 AM

make that

#24 Re: New Problem- Sluggish Interface?! Moz And Phoe

by pepejeria

Tuesday October 1st, 2002 5:14 AM

I am seing this too, but then I already said this in the bug.

#28 Anyone else?

by chrisc

Tuesday October 1st, 2002 8:03 AM

Yeah, and thanks for backing me up, but I'm beginning to think that no-one else sees it as a problem and they're certainly nothing happening in the bug so far (I'm not being impatient on purpose, I just wouldn't like to think that no-one is doing anything about it)..