MozillaZine

Full Article Attached Mitchell Staying with mozilla.org

Monday September 17th, 2001

Mitchell posted an update of her situation with reguards to her standing in mozilla.org. She will be staying on as Chief Lizard Wrangler, only without the added role of being the liaison between mozilla.org and Netscape. Click the Full Article link to get the full scoop.


#1 this makes me happy

by Tanaaln <olympictram@yahoo.com>

Monday September 17th, 2001 8:00 PM

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I guess it's just leaves me with a good feeling about the project...

Even though I don't know you, Mitchell, I wish you the best of luck in finding a new "day job," and hope it allows you to continue your work with mozilla.org.

Anyway, I'm going to bed... got whipped by swim practice and ski team dryland... heh.

Scott

"The worst day skiing is still better than the best day of school -- unless you tear your ACL."

#2 Re: Re: Question

by bandido

Monday September 17th, 2001 8:02 PM

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I porefer the Chief Lizard Wrangler. It has more character. What about Lizard-in- Charge? or Chief Lizard Advocate?

#3 We should go with mangelo's suggestion...

by Gerv

Monday September 17th, 2001 8:04 PM

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Chief Lizard Ramrod. :-)

Gerv

#4 How about "The Lizard...

by mintSlice

Monday September 17th, 2001 9:12 PM

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How about "The Lizard formally known as Chief Wrangler

#5 Whatever

by Tanyel <tanyel@straightblack.com>

Monday September 17th, 2001 10:52 PM

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I know people who are victims of downsizing. I never thought it was newsworthy. I hope this person does not experience the financial troubles of some of the unemployed people I know.

I wonder if this was a measure to reduce cost or if this was done because people at America Online were disappointed by Mozilla and its progress. I can imagine somebody from America Online asking, "when will it be done?" only to be answered with, "when it's ready." Maybe the changes will lead to a better web browser or whatever they think Gecko is.

#8 Re: Whatever

by basic <_basic@yahoo.com>

Monday September 17th, 2001 11:14 PM

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<quote> I wonder if this was a measure to reduce cost or if this was done because people at America Online were disappointed by Mozilla and its progress. I can imagine somebody from America Online asking, "when will it be done?" only to be answered with, "when it's ready." Maybe the changes will lead to a better web browser or whatever they think Gecko is.</quote>

rotflol rotflol rotflol... ahem... good one ;-) did AOL lay off employees from their other departments because they were disappointed by Mozilla?

#10 Re: Re: Whatever

by Tanyel <tanyel@straightblack.com>

Tuesday September 18th, 2001 6:44 AM

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sdghsdkhkdh sdghghgksdh sdgkhuiehgwe... Your statements are suddenly wrong because I typed long strings of letters.

I suppose they downsized because they felt those employees were not worth what they were being paid. There are other reasons people get fired but they are too political to mention just because somebody typed stupid acronyms.

#14 Re: Trollish Comment

by greenrd <greenrd@hotmail.com>

Tuesday September 18th, 2001 7:42 AM

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rotflol is an acronym meaning "rolls on the floor laughing". You see it all over the Internet (but usually spelled as ROTFL)

#15 Re: Trollish Comment

by greenrd <greenrd@hotmail.com>

Tuesday September 18th, 2001 7:43 AM

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oops mozilla bug - not my fault - I'll go file a bug for that on bugzilla.mozilla.org!

#22 Re: Re: Trollish Comment

by tny

Tuesday September 18th, 2001 9:38 AM

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ROTFLOL is Rolling On the Floor Laughing Out Loud, a combination of ROTFL and LOL. See The Jargon File entry "Talk Mode" at <http://www.tuxedo.org/~es…html/entry/talk-mode.html>

#17 Re: Whatever

by Gerv

Tuesday September 18th, 2001 8:29 AM

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> disappointed by Mozilla and its progress.

Do you think AOL measures Mozilla's progress by the increments in its version number, as many others seem to do?

Do you think AOL cares when mozilla.org decides to call one of its releases 1.0? Would it have released three (to date) products based on Mozilla code from different bits of the trunk if it assessed things in that way?

Gerv

#21 Re: Re: Whatever

by macpeep

Tuesday September 18th, 2001 9:03 AM

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"Do you think AOL cares when mozilla.org decides to call one of its releases 1.0?"

Obviously not, as evident from the fact that they released Netscape 6.0.

"Would it have released three (to date) products based on Mozilla code from different bits of the trunk if it assessed things in that way?"

Three? 6.0 and two fix versions (one minor, one major).

#24 Re: Re: Re: Whatever

by asa <asa@mozilla.org>

Tuesday September 18th, 2001 11:21 AM

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They've released more than just Netscape6, 6.01 and 6.1. Remember the consumer device of the year from comdex, the AOL Gateway touchscreen device? That was based on Mozilla code. They also have and plan to do additional releases of Mozilla based products, see <http://home.netscape.com/…ef/pr/newsrelease805.html>.

#27 Re: Re: Re: Re: Whatever

by strauss

Tuesday September 18th, 2001 3:35 PM

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Is the AOL Gateway product in production? Where can we buy one? My impression was that almost all the Internet appliances had been discontinued.

Your link is broken, BTW.

#28 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Whatever

by thomanski

Tuesday September 18th, 2001 3:49 PM

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If you take a close look at the link, you'll find that it's the full stop at the end that invalidates it. If you remove it, it works.

#31 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Whatever

by asa <asa@mozilla.org>

Tuesday September 18th, 2001 11:09 PM

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I don't know if the Gateway thing is in production. If you heard that it wasn't I'm willing to accept that. A google search didn't turn up anything about it's death. Most of those things have failed in the last year or two so I wouldn't doubt it. 3Com pulled the plug on it's device didn't they. That's a shame. I suspect that these things will make a return some day. There's no reason, except for a tight economy, not to have them around. I want internet in and a few simple apps available from every room in the house in inconspicuous devices. I suspect that I'm not alone.

--Asa

#35 Whither the Appliances?

by tny

Monday September 24th, 2001 3:09 PM

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I want something with 2X the color screen realestate of a PDA, less than 3 times the weight, a scrawlable UI, and 802.11b, and I doubt that I'm alone, but it doesn't look like anyone's ready to cater to us yet.

Appliances mostly need to use proprietary hardware because the case isn't standardized, right? While you can build a Wintel computer with COTS components. Until they work out a format for using COTS parts for appliances, I don't see them gaining any ground.

#6 Trollish Comment

by ERICmurphy <murphye@gmail.com>

Monday September 17th, 2001 11:01 PM

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I do my best to stay as positive as possible, but I have to make this comment:

What has Mitchell done for Mozilla besides attend meetings and conferences? I have met her in person, but still have no clue about what she has really done. Can someone answer this?

Now, I'm sure Mitchell has done a great job handling with Netscape in the past, but the Netscape-Mozilla relationship is symbiotic. They depend on each other in ways that we now know... so there is probably not much to negotiate anymore. That's probably why she got laid off.

I hope Mitchell can devote some time to plan how Mozilla 1.0 will be distributed. Will there be Mozilla.org binaries? Will it be source-only? Who else might distribute binaries? These are important questions that have yet to be answered.

#12 Re: Trollish Comment

by greenrd <greenrd@hotmail.com>

Tuesday September 18th, 2001 7:38 AM

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Of course there will be binaries. There are binaries and RPMs for all the releases and for nightlies on <ftp://ftp.mozilla.org> since a while back. Why should they stop distributing binaries now?

Bandwidth might be an issue - but that's what mirrors are for!

In my opinion, other distributors will be mainly Linux/Unix distributions, just as it is now. Netscape 6.x and future versions, which are / will be based on Moz, are targeted at the broad consumer market. That's what Netscape will be pushing. Mozilla is free for anyone who wants to to distribute, but Netscape 6.x is their more "official" product.

#18 Re: Trollish Comment

by Gerv

Tuesday September 18th, 2001 8:34 AM

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> What has Mitchell done for Mozilla besides attend meetings and conferences?

Mediating between Netscape and mozilla.org was, and is, a full-time job on its own. It is this part that she will no longer be doing.

She has also been doing a great deal of work behind the scenes on legal (licensing) issues of several different sorts, being the point of contact for Mozilla embedders and distributors, and averting a large number of crises that you never get to hear about (and I had no idea about before I became a Netscape employee.) The fact that you haven't heard about them is a testimony to the way they've been handled.

And you may scoff, but attending meetings and conferences, being a figurehead, takes up quite a bit of time as well. The list is as long as your arm.

Gerv

#20 Re: Trollish Comment

by tseng_mike <tseng_mike@yahoo.com>

Tuesday September 18th, 2001 8:38 AM

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This is purely speculation, but I think she actually get a hand in promoting/encouraging the use of mozilla code to 3rd party companies. Management in companies want to talk to a person who can bring forward the benefits of using mozilla without technical jargons.

Of course her skills in law also helps. The great blur between open source being GPL thanks to Microsoft has put some potential contributors off from using mozilla. Mitchell should be able to explain the real implications of MPL/NPL with more authority than us the programmers

#7 Time invested and responsibilities.

by jelwell

Monday September 17th, 2001 11:13 PM

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I, like Eric Murphy, wonder what Mitchell does for Mozilla - not Netscape. From the mozilla.org website,

"Mitchell is the manager, problem arbitrator, and speaker to suits, which involves doing mysterious political things of which technical people are blissfully unaware. She also translates between suit-speak and the language the rest of us understand. If it's a question that's not about code, she's probably got her fingers in it.

As one of the first people in Netscape's legal department, Mitchell helped the company get big and became a manager. More recently, she helped unleash Mozilla's source code on the world with her work on the Netscape and Mozilla Public Licenses."

I read that as two roles: 1) Makes decisions for Mozilla.org 2) Historical icon - created (hopefully to be defunct) MPL

How much time is Mitchell going to have to spend doing 1 now that she's not getting paid to do it?

Joseph Elwell.

#9 Re: Time invested and responsibilities.

by gwalla <gwalla@despammed.com>

Tuesday September 18th, 2001 1:22 AM

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Why do you think the MPL should be defunct? IMO, it fills a important licensing gap: It's a little more permissive in linking than the LGPL, but it protects the openness of the code more than the BSD/Apache license (which is just a step away from public domain).

Now, the NPL I do think has to die. Fortunately, that is the policy and it's happening.

#13 Re: Trollish Comment

by greenrd <greenrd@hotmail.com>

Tuesday September 18th, 2001 7:40 AM

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Indeed, the MPL is being used for other unrelated major projects, such as <http://www.aspectj.org> (an aspect-oriented extension to Java).

#33 Trollish Comment

by mitchell <mitchell@mozilla.org>

Tuesday September 18th, 2001 11:53 PM

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There are many projects using the MPL. A partical list can be found at <http://mozilla.org/docs/o…a/04_Out_and_About_6.html>

(This is one of the slides I prepared for my talk at the O'Reilly Conference.) There are numerous other projects not on this list. A Google search for "Mozilla Public License" will find a number of these.

Mitchell

#36 207 MPL projects at Sourceforge.net

by gsarwar <gsarwar@technologist.com>

Tuesday September 25th, 2001 9:29 AM

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There're 207 MPL projects at sourceforge:

<http://sourceforge.net/so…ove_list.php?form_cat=189>

#19 Re: Time invested and responsibilities.

by Gerv

Tuesday September 18th, 2001 8:36 AM

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> How much time is Mitchell going to have to spend doing 1 now that > she's not getting paid to do it?

Decision-making at mozilla.org has always been via a process of consensus among the staff. Mitchell should have a lot _more_ time to participate in that process, now that most of her time is not taken up with Netscape-related issues.

Gerv

#29 How much time?

by jelwell

Tuesday September 18th, 2001 6:19 PM

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"Mitchell should have a lot _more_ time to participate in that process, now that most of her time is not taken up with Netscape-related issues."

Does that mean mitchell isn't going to get a paying job? Usually one doesn't get layed off into retirement. If mitchell finds a new job that is unrelated to Mozilla.org then it's likely she'll have *far* _less_ time to participate in any mozilla.org process if she isn't allowed to spend any of her work time devoted to Mozilla. (my point is: at least at netscape she was allowed to spend a good bit of her on the clock time working on mozilla. with a new job she may not be able to spend any on the clock time working on mozilla)

Joseph Elwell

#11 New title

by sab39

Tuesday September 18th, 2001 7:13 AM

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Well, it really ought to be an unpronounceable lizard-shaped symbol :)

Practically speaking, though, I do like Wrangler At Large, but how about "Lizard at Large"?

Stuart.

PS I'm reminded of _So long and thanks for all the fish_: "I come in peace. Take me to your Lizard".

#25 Re: New title

by SubtleRebel <mark@ky.net>

Tuesday September 18th, 2001 11:41 AM

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Even if it can not be pronounced, it would need to be a symbol that could be typed. Emoticons are not my strong suit, but here is a try at a small lizard walking from right to left.

o{?{~~

However, I think Mitchell would need something more aggressive. My attempts to use ascii characters to make a monster like lizard standing up on two legs have failed miserably and make the above string look like a work of art.

For now I think I will go back to coding and leave the artistic design to someone else.

#26 Character change

by SubtleRebel <mark@ky.net>

Tuesday September 18th, 2001 11:46 AM

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Hmmm, I guess my long dash character for the body got lost in transition. The short dash does not link the leg sections together as well, but I am sure it is more universal.

o{-{~~

#16 I wonder how much Wrangler boots cost...

by kb7iuj <ajvincent@hotmail.com>

Tuesday September 18th, 2001 7:58 AM

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I think you should keep the current title. Of course, you could always start singing, "DOM, DOM on the Range..."

In a way, though, this is good for the credibility of mozilla.org. People are always saying Mozilla === Netscape, when that's really not the case. It reminds us that Mozilla is a huge but loose alliance, where people are (almost) as interchangeable as the code they write. If the Chief isn't part of the primary company sponsoring the project, that gives a degree of objectivity you just can't get anywhere else.

Don't get me wrong -- I don't like the idea of anyone getting laid off either. Have we heard anything about where the Chief Lizard Wrangler will be going next?

Keep the title. And I hope Netscape chooses a good Ambassador.

#23 Very welcome news

by peterb <peter@bojanic.ca>

Tuesday September 18th, 2001 9:58 AM

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In retrospect it only seems appropriate that Mitchell fulfill her important role out here in on wild range of the open source community.

First the source code for Mozilla, next all the development resources (like Bugzilla, Bonsai, LXR and Tinderbox), and most recently Mitchell Baker. Netscape just keeps giving their most valuable assets away.

Thanks, Netscape! I can hardly wait to see what you give us next :)

P.S. I like "Wrangler at Large".

#30 Money for Mozilla?

by broadbandbra

Tuesday September 18th, 2001 8:01 PM

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with all the value that Mozilla brings to someone wanting to deploy their own web based application, is this being tapped as a market? Is there someone out there selling Mozilla and charging for consultation and expertise?

#32 Work and focus

by mitchell <mitchell@mozilla.org>

Tuesday September 18th, 2001 11:40 PM

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Well, hopefully I've been something more than a figurehead ;-)

Aside from meetings, conferences, and a good chunk of time working with Netscape, I've been spending a good amount of time working with other companies using Mozilla and/or wondering how to get involved in Mozilla development. This is a more complicated question for a company development team than it is for an individual hacker.

I also spend a lot of time trying to forge consensus about mozilla.,org policies and procesures, and beginning to document them. The Review and Super-review FAQ <http://www.mozilla.org/ha…king/code-review-faq.html> may not seem that complex, but actually writting something down, tracking down the people involved, verifying how things actually work, and developing consensus on how they ought work is a very time consuming task.

As to the future, I'm not sure what sort of job I'll have. I am delighted to have a break. I started at Netscape back in its dim pre-history and am very happy to have a rest. The Mozilla project is both important and filled with great people. I plan to stay involved.

#34 Re: Work and focus

by sdm

Thursday September 20th, 2001 6:26 PM

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"I started at Netscape back in its dim pre-history" - read: I've got options to exercise :)

Hey, ever think of opening a nightclub?