Full Article Attached Towards Mozilla 1.0

Tuesday June 26th, 2001

Gervase Markham recently posted his feelings on what a 1.0 release of Mozilla would be. Gerv has sent us the follow-up to that posting, including much of the feedback he received. To read it, click the full article link. Once you have read through it, we welcome you to post your feelings on what you think a 1.0 release would have. [As Gerv says, please don't post your favorite list of bugs, only the criteria for choosing what bugs to fix.]

#151 Re: Re: Re: Re: Cut the bull or put the bull in?

by jelwell

Thursday June 28th, 2001 2:20 PM

You are replying to this message

"My point has always been not that it is hard to set goals, but that any goals you set will be totally arbitrary."

Yes. So you need to realize that the goals I suggest are only as arbitrary as the goals you put forward.

"If I say "Why IE 5.5?" and you say "Why not?" then I'll say "then why not Netscape 6" and we can do all our performance criteria relative to that."

Because users want a browser that is faster than IE5.5. They do NOT want a browser that is faster than Netscape 6. That's like offering a car buyer a geo metro and saying it's fast because you compared it to a toyota celica. If you want to say it's fast you have to compare it to the speed champ. If you're going to make goals for 1.0 they better mean something to the consumer.

"Which download size?" Someone said IE is 51megs. I've never really thought that Mozilla was too big anyways. So I'd have to say we beat them. Check that one off the list. And while your at it, try to realize that C|net and everyother review site is going to figure out a way to do benchmarks and compare download size. Why is it so hard for Mozilla to do them? When I know for a fact that Netscape is already doing them.

"Sorry, Linux user, we aren't declaring Mozilla as 1.0 software because it's not as 'fast' as some program you never use on some operating system you hate."

I use Linux, so let me just debunk a few things here. First off, no one said Linux users hate Windows. Second, would you rather see mozilla apologize for a slow browser? Most Linux users stuck with Linux in the past, because there was a Browser on the OS that was as good as any on Windows. Netscape 3/4. However, you're suggesting that Mozilla be able to get away with releasing a slow browser because there isn't a faster browser on that OS. Wow. Why don't we drop all the OS's and just support BeOS, then people will stop complaining that it's soo slow, because we'll be the only browser. And we better drop windows and mac support, because we're not even going to try to match the speed of the current browser king (IE).

"That's a pointless point. The entire reason for this discussion is to set the goals and have a rationale for the ones you set. Merely saying "set one" doesn't help." I think users will agree with me that fast startup time is a good enough rationale. *sarcasm* I should think you won alot of debates in school by saying the other sides argument was "pointless". *end sarcasm* I don't see a single person, other than you, here arguing that benchmarks are *whine* too hard *end whine* to implement so we shouldn't bother. Every review magazine does benchmarks. Everytime a new browser comes out Zdnet, C|net, and many print magazines all produce benchmarks that say Mozilla/Netscape is slower than IE.

"Right, then we'll do all our benchmarking against Netscape 6 again." If mozilla wants to release a browser that people will use you'd better start realizing that the industry is capable of benchmarking apples with apples - Mozilla should figure out how to do this too.

"Yes. Mozilla will not be 1.0 software until we have a good API freeze story. This is one of the key requirements." I said, "freeze the API's". It sounds like you're saying Mozilla won't freeze the API's, but instead they'll have a "good freeze story". Great. Let me tell you their performance story. Once, there was a little girl named alice. She tried using mozilla 1.0 and it wasn't nearly as fast as the browser she was already using. So young alice switched back to (IE/Konqueror/N4.x/Opera/Browser of choice). If in fact you meant that Mozilla will freeze it's API's, then either Mozilla 1.0 will never be released, or you will eat your words. That would imply that future versions of Mozilla would only fix bugs - and not a single feature would go in, nor would bugs that require API changes be fixed.

" never, in the beginning, promised a 1.0. " Clever. They did promise a 5.0 though. It's nice to see Mozilla change it's numbering system so that they don't have to release what they promised.

" promised full support for html4 dom0/1 and css1 in the first release. This is well-known, and has been for ages." Show me. I already proved with the links to the most earliest posts about Mozilla that they in fact did not promise any such thing in the beginning. promised a 5.0 before the NGLayout was even supposed to go in. It's nice to think that one of's first promises was full support for html4 dom0/1 and css1. But the truth is that promised source code first, and a browser second. Everything else was added on while they spent years failing to deliver the browser.

Don't get me wrong. I love Mozilla. (although pundits will point to my kill mozilla (the mascot) bug in bugzilla). I was a mozilla advocate before I was a Netscape employee. What I don't want is for IE to continue ripping away the marketshare of Mozilla based browsers (currently somewhere below the 15% marker - if not seriously lower).

Let Netscape come out with buggy, slow browsers. They're going to release whether Mozilla hits 1.0 or not - as they've already done. Since Netscape has picken up the task of releasing a browser on time, let's let Mozilla pick up the task of releasing a better browser, "when it's ready".

Joseph Elwell.