MozillaZine

New Modern Skin Soon

Monday April 2nd, 2001

Joe Hewitt writes:
"Mozilla will be getting a new look very soon. The Modern theme has been redesigned to be a little easier on the eyes. The new look includes a lighter shade of blue, colored toolbar button icons, and lots of other little touches. Bear with me as I land this sometime in the next week or so, as there will surely be bugs. The design is still evolving and there are likely to be frequent changes (for example, dialog buttons will not be black for long after landing)."

Joe also sent us a screenshot for you to check out, stay tuned for more info on this landing.


#1 cool but..

by macpeep

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 12:30 AM

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A couple of comments:

1) The toolbars for mail and the browser don't share the same design 2) The buttons on the browser toolbar have a heavy outline.. could be a little lighter (as in.. not heavy) 3) the component icons (bottom bar) are cool but the wheel for the browser is a little heavier than the rest and feels a little bit out of place 4) the dark grey-brown widgets ("go", "search", "all engines" etc.) could get some other color.. it's not totally bad but that color is sub-optimal 5) the lock icon should be moved to the left on the toolbar. leaving the empty corner there for the mac resize widget makes no sense since 95% of all computers will just have an empty corner there. 6)

#2 continued...

by macpeep

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 12:38 AM

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6) the netscape icon in mail news has a weird alignment caused by the text-bar for the buttons.. not good 7) the tabs in the sidebar had a nicer shape before imho

Anyway, overall, I think it's decent.. but I never had a problem with the older version either.. I wish that would have been cleaned up instead of making a completely new design instead. Oh well.. As long as this one gets cleaned up, I guess it's ok. BTW, this isn't a slightly lighter shade of blue. This is purple.

#6 Re: continued...

by ogiesen

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 2:09 AM

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Concerning your color impression: On my system the UI is definitely a light blue (even more definitely NOT purple) and the buttons your described as brownish are perfectly black/anthracite here.\n Maybe some gamma adjustment problem?\n I\'m totally with you on items 1,2,5,6 and 7, though.

Oliver

#8 colors

by macpeep

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 2:59 AM

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Hmm, that's odd cause I checked first on my machine at work and now home and the pics look identical. The base color (what I call purple) is r:210 g:213 b:228 and the buttons are 100, 101, 106 - so definitely not BLACK. I guess the base color is debatable but the buttons sure as hell aren't black.

#11 black?

by Sparkster

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 4:29 AM

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100, 101, 106 should be grey and it looks like grey. So I think it IS grey. :) In other words, a light black. It could be a little bit blueish (and yes, I see some minor influence of blue) cause of the slightly larger value vor "blue". But if you really see this as brown, you should check your monitor settings. :) And as the article said: "dialog buttons will not be black for long after landing"

Concerning the browser wheel, I think it's ok. The browser is definetly the major applications, so why should this item look different? I think this new theme is great. But I'm still waiting for a new official Mozilla theme that looks a bit more like classic, but not THAT classic. I want something with clean and nice widgets with sharp edges, not round ones. :) But NOT exactly this old and boring Netscape look. I'm sick of it.

#21 Coll,

by Gorgeus <georgmeyer@loop.de>

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 8:57 AM

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I especially like the envelope in the mail/news section. I think it would be great to have such a symbol in every part. How about bringing the good old sailing wheel back ?

Gorgeus

#64 Re: Coll,

by NikoP

Wednesday April 4th, 2001 9:16 AM

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no! don't bring back the "good old sailing wheel" - recently (or still) there's a discussion in n.p.m.general (? - or .ui - or .seamonkey, don't know at the moment) on "disconnecting from Netscape". And, in fact, the sailing wheel is a symbol which should be abolished in Mozilla to show the people that Mozilla is an own product.

Niko!

#31 Perheps the theme you want...

by KaiRo <KaiRo@KaiRo.at>

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 11:42 AM

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hmm, could EarlyBlue be the like-classic theme you want? The only problem is that also my current developing version crashes recent builds :(

For older builds, there is a working version (and a sceen shot) at x.themes.org - check it out!

#29 Re: continued...

by dark

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 11:20 AM

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It's purple all right. Not at all brighter blue. Far too much red in it. Purple is the one color i never could stand, so the new modern is a skin i won't be using. PLEASE keep the "old" newmod skin as an alternative? I much prefer the simpler buttons in that one, as well as the tabs in sidebar. The new tabs are too "cartoonish" and look blubby or "heavyer" compared to the more streamlined and discret tabs in the current newmod theme.

As for the new icons: Too much color and black outlines makes them look more chaotic than the old and cleaner look.

#3 very nice

by redpants

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 12:43 AM

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I esp. like the improvements to mail/news, but I'm curious as to why it looks so different than the browser. Nice new icons on the taskbar.

I was guessing something like this would happen in preperation for a 1.0 release and a new netscape release... Must look different than that awful 6.0 thing..

#4 What about grey?

by stu42j

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 1:01 AM

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This new skin looks pretty cool but I rather like the grey version of the modern skin that's available on Netscape's Theme Park. I find the grey less distracting. Maybe you could make a grey version of this one?

#7 Re: What about grey?

by jhewitt <joe@joehewitt.com>

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 2:41 AM

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A lot of people have asked for a Gray version of this new skin, as I suppose Mozillium was pretty popular. There's a good chance you will get your wish. We'll propably crank out a few color variations at one point.

#9 Re: Re: What about grey?

by Ben_Goodger

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 3:10 AM

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a -moz-tint CSS property has been suggested several times. This would (hopefully) allow you to create variations by simply editing a CSS file (e.g. your user stylesheet)

#17 Re: Re: What about grey?

by petejc <pete@mozdev.org>

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 7:06 AM

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Looks great Joe! I would love to see grey as well.

--pete

#36 Re: What about grey?

by afranke

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 12:40 PM

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"Me too." The skins i liked best so far are "GrayModern" and "classic", probably mainly because they are grey.

#10 Re: What about grey?

by macpeep

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 3:29 AM

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Yes, grey would rule.. The thing is that these Pez-dispenser designs look good only on some desktops that happen to have colors that match. Just check the window border colors here.. 204, 207, 212.. It's a grey with almost the exactly same brightness as the menus in the new design. Sure, on that system, that probably looks great. On a system with a sand colored scheme, it might look like crap. I vote for having relatively neutral default skins. And I vote for getting that damn empty corner next to the lock-icon on the status bar removed!! (alternatively, moving the lock icon to the left) :)

#32 Re: Re: What about grey?

by asa <asa@mozilla.org>

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 11:56 AM

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Mozilla has "relatively neutral default skins" It's called Classic. Netscape is kind enough to donate a second (read 'alternate') skin to Mozilla. This gives us some variety and helps to stress test the underlying XUL and toolkit framework. Classic is still our default and is doing an increasingly better job of supporting system colors.

--Asa

#19 Re: What about grey?

by kaldari

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 8:43 AM

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I agree, blue and purple clash, blue and grey do not.

#5 What's up with Theme Park!

by edoggie <ericg@yackinc.com>

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 1:36 AM

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Why is Netscape taking so long to release the other themes. The contest was over month's ago and there are several theme's I would like to look at and try.

Also why hasn't anyone created an Aqua (Mac OS X theme) for Mozilla?

The Modern theme is getting better, but I think it would do every platform better, if there was a specific theme for each platform, Windows looking, Mac OS 9 theme, Mac OS X theme, BeOS theme, etc.

#20 Re: What's up with Theme Park!

by Jowey

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 8:54 AM

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I think I remember lots of sites and people beeing threatened with litigation for their Aqua related themes last year. Do a search on Slashdot if you wanna see specific articles about it, but basically Apple wants to sue the pants off all those evil themes makers...

#30 They should make aqua for macs only

by Waldo

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 11:22 AM

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it seems the solution would be to make the theme checkthat it's running on a mac or something, no? I mean, if you've got os x then you should be able to use the aqua widgets... i mean, mac 9 users can use the os 9 widgets...

either that or Apple should be decent and just say to mozilla-- we give you a limited license for this app.

#47 Re: What's up with Theme Park!

by bzbarsky

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 4:58 PM

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For one thing, the many of themes submitted to the contest only styled the browser, leaving mailnews, chatzilla, and any other components that got installed without a UI.... Netscape will not be putting up broken themes like that.

#49 Re: Re: What's up with Theme Park!

by Kovu <Kovu401@netscape.net>

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 5:48 PM

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Then Netscape should have specified that only FINISHED themes could win. Besides, there's a blurb on the Theme Park (click a link towards the bottom to see a list of the winners -- it's on that page) saying "We are currently working with Theme Developers to make their Themes available on our Theme Park. In the meantime..."

They shouldn't have said such if it wasn't true.

JR

#57 Make the themes that you want

by SubtleRebel <mark@ky.net>

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 11:33 PM

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I do not mean this to be a personal attack on anyone, but just a reality check.

In answer to the question of "Why hasn't anyone created a _______ theme for Mozilla?" is "Why haven't you?"

Why complain that no one else is making the themes that you want? If you want a theme that looks a certain way then make it yourself.

If you do not have the skills to make a theme on your own, then why not contract someone to create the theme that you want?

Most of the people who work to develop Mozilla and design themes are not got getting paid to do it. They ask for constructive criticism because they want to make something that people want, but it annoys the heck out of me when I see non-contributors whining and bitching about how their personal preferences are not being met fast enough.

#12 Down-arrow button?

by ess

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 6:20 AM

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What's that huge down-arrow button to the left of the URL field? I assume that it's the pulldown button for the list of previously-entered URLs. If so, it should be attached to the right side of the field, not orphaned off on the right. People know what combo boxes (Win) and popup menus (Mac) look like. I don't think it's very smart to reinvent such a common UI element, especially when the result takes up more space and looks awkward.

#14 Re: Down-arrow button?

by dave532

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 6:29 AM

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It's the internet keywords pulldown box, Load Netscape 6 up to see what I mean. Mozilla won't have this pulldown.

#13 I would like to see the browser icons...

by ezh <ezh@menelon.ee>

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 6:21 AM

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... as the from mail window - they are more colored and better for the eye.

#15 A couple of comment/suggestions

by Chewey

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 6:42 AM

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I like the mail/news toolbar better - they just seem to be less harsh. But will the ability to turn the text labels on/off be available? If you do decide to use the mail/news toolbar style, then putting the Netscape Navigator logo (wheel) at a similar angle would be neat.

Nice start though.

#22 Re: A couple of comment/suggestions

by macpeep

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 9:23 AM

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There's just a little problem with the mail / news toolbar. While the envelope looks cool, it eats up some space from the toolbar. For mail & news, that's ok, but for the browser, it's unacceptable. So there are two choices: a) have toolbars of two different styles b) drop the image

Personally I don't like option a. I find it very unprofessional to have that kind of inconsistency!

#16 Icons

by dave532

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 6:51 AM

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The icons styles in Navigator are sufficiently different from Mail/News to make them look like separate apps. We really need different icons checked in for each of the mozilla components asap. Having the same icon in the taskbar for each mozilla app (or Netscape 6) is just confusing

#23 Re: Icons

by macpeep

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 9:25 AM

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Are you joking or did I misunderstand? Having two totally different sets of icons, no matter how cool both look, in one application is very unprofessional! Mail & News, the browser and the editor are all one and the same application. It's just a different component of Mozilla but it's the same application so there should - *definitely* - only be one set of icons and one unified look. That's my opinion too but I'd be willing to bet that the majority agrees with me.

#25 Re: Re: Icons

by dave532

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 10:05 AM

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I mean like Netscape 4.x, the browser has a different icon, the mail has a different icon, as does composer, makes it easy to see which is which on the taskbar. Also on Linux the icon for the mail window used to change (with the green arrow) when you had mail

#27 It's already a bug

by theuiguy

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 10:19 AM

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#18 psuedo-3D dimple effect

by kaldari

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 8:41 AM

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The psuedo-3D dimple effect is totally cheesy. Just my 2-cents.

#70 Re: psuedo-3D dimple effect

by billpena

Wednesday April 4th, 2001 12:18 PM

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I agree, especially the tooblar of mail/news. They don't make the buttons look like they're coming up from the toolbar, they look like they're floating awkwardly on a hill. If the dimple were angle differently so that it was less pointy, more rounded, it might work, but I don't think you need it.

In any case, I'm drooling for this theme, knowing that my blue-scale desktop will fit in nicely ... ;)

#83 Hate the bumps, too

by Kovu <Kovu401@netscape.net>

Thursday April 5th, 2001 9:32 PM

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The dimples do, in fact, seriously suck (or whatever else). The toolbar itself is already curved, GENTLY, and then come these pimples. Soon we'll have a mountain range up there! Seriously, if they weren't too small to fit the icons properly on top of, I wouldn't hate them so much. Currently they're too small, assuming they should even exist.

JR

#84 Hate the bumps, too

by Kovu <Kovu401@netscape.net>

Thursday April 5th, 2001 9:34 PM

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The dimples do, in fact, seriously suck (or whatever else). The toolbar itself is already curved, GENTLY, and then come these pimples. Soon we'll have a mountain range up there! Seriously, if they weren't too small to fit the icons properly on top of, I wouldn't hate them so much. Currently they're too small, assuming they should even exist.

JR

#85 Dammit sorry

by Kovu <Kovu401@netscape.net>

Thursday April 5th, 2001 9:35 PM

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Sorry for the double post. Argh.

#24 My impressions

by sab39

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 9:38 AM

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I love everything about mail (provided you can turn the text labels off - and that the envelope shrinks correspondingly when you do) and hate (almost) everything about the browser. The circles are ugly and way too pronounced, the grey "search" and "go" buttons don't fit in with the rest of the theme, the sidebar panels are ugly compared to their current state, etc. etc.

If you were to make the browser use the same icon style as mail (get rid of the circles, shrink the icons down, put in optional text labels, etc) I'd be in heaven!

Oh yeah, and I'm in favor of a grey version, too :)

Stuart.

#52 Re: My impressions

by ipotting <iapottinger@netscape.net>

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 6:36 PM

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I like the new colour scheme and the attention to detail that this theme exhibits but I am concerned about the mail/news toolbar. Those icons look less like buttons and more like pretty little graphic labels. I've had the same concern about the current modern theme ("Is that a painted on pattern or is it something I can press?") I always thought that a button should look and behave like a button. Kudos to the new navigator for avoiding this unsightly ambiguity!

I have to say I do like the envelope image. It does a fantastic job giving mail/news its own identity while simultaneously illustrating its purpose. Navigator, Composer, and the Address Book should adopt this idea. How about eliminating that useless piece of marketing fluff called a throbber and replacing it with these images. To preserver the only justifiable function the throbber has, give the user some feedback by animating these images instead. Like this envelope, use a subtle image that almost blends into the toolbar background and a subtle animation that the user could almost ignore. Don't worry about space. Why can't the image/throbber lay behind the toolbar icons? Why can?t the image/throbber *be* the toolbar background?!?

#26 My thoughts

by ERICmurphy <murphye@gmail.com>

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 10:09 AM

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I think all of the design clues from the new Mail should be carried over to the other apps. It looks so much more professional than those ugly circles.

That envelope image is really cool. We need more of that type of design.

Also, the sidebar tabs do not fit in well.

#28 Re: My thoughts

by macpeep

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 10:58 AM

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The only problems I have with the new toolbar is that the Netscape icon (Why is it there? This is Mozilla after all!) has to be awkwardly small and weirdly aligned with.. just about everything due to the button text area line thingt.. Also, while looking cool, the letter eats room from the toolbar.. For mail-news, this isn't a problem, but for the browser, it would be impossible. Two different types of toolbars also seem unacceptable for me. Consistency IS important!

#35 Re: Re: My thoughts

by asa <asa@mozilla.org>

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 12:14 PM

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The netscape icon is there because the person developing the theme which will be contributed to Mozilla as an alternate skin happens to be employed by netscape and works on netscape commercail daily builds and not mozilla daily builds.

If you can create a better alternate theme for Mozilla feel free to do so. When it\'s as far along as the one Joe is working on post some screenshots or make a test XPI available to the Mozilla community and ask mozilla.org if you can check it in.

If this is really \"unacceptable\" for you then don\'t use it. Remember, it is an _alternate_ theme. Mozilla builds default to Classic.

--Asa

#46 And Classic is great...

by Sparkster

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 4:37 PM

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... but I would really like to see a new classic look someday. A combination of classic (colors, buttons styles, scrollbar styles) and this new modern mail/news theme (design, icons) would be outstanding. I think classic looks to old and "cheap". Of course I can't do it better, so this is not a complaint, just a dream. :)

#58 Re: Re: Re: My thoughts

by macpeep

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 11:53 PM

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Gotcha about the Netscape icon. But I think you're wrong about the "if you can make a better one, do it" thing. I can't make a better one, but that doesn't mean my opinions about the current one are invalid or don't count. I think there's a real problem with having two different looks on the toolbars and I'm pointing these problems out. It's not about being unacceptable or acceptable *for me*, it's about pointing out errors that I'm sure lots of other people agree on. What's wrong with trying to influence something for the better?

#66 ...and my thoughts

by asa <asa@mozilla.org>

Wednesday April 4th, 2001 9:44 AM

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I'm not a UI designer. I've got some graphic design background but not in software UI. I disagree with you that "Two different types of toolbars also seem unacceptable" It seems to me that we have a variety of toolbars across the app and they are all quite different. The Navigation toolbar (even in the old/current modern) looks very different from the Message toolbar. The Personal toolbar in the browser looks and behaves nothing like the threadpane Header toolbar in mailnews or the Format toolbar in editor or messagecompose. The editor views Tabs toolbar looks nothing like the anything in the other apps except maybe a little like the tabs in chatzilla or the sidebar. They can't and won't all look the same.

I also like consistency. That's one reason I like the Classic theme. It feels more consistent with my Web application experience. I don't think that every application in the suite should live inside the Classic browser chrome though.

--Asa

#51 Make the envelope the throbber

by astrosmash

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 6:20 PM

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Make the envelope the throbber!

If you're going to set a side prime toolbar real estate, you might as well make it do something, right?

I would love to see that mail/news style make it's way onto the browser, too; perhaps a Navigator wheel in place of the envelope, throbbing on the left...

Is it possible to left-align the throbber with the current skins?

#82 Re: Make the envelope the throbber

by ERICmurphy <murphye@gmail.com>

Thursday April 5th, 2001 6:31 PM

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Kewl idea. I kinda thought the same thing, only on the right.

Doubt it will ever happen though...

#33 Suggestions-small icon option, gray, move home

by CNeb96 <cneb96@hotmail.com>

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 12:12 PM

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I really like the new look. I just have a few suggestions. 1. Move the home button up with the other default buttons. 2. The look for Mail and Mozilla seem quite different. I like the Messenger look better. 3. I agree with other posts that a gray version would be great. 4. Is there a good way to provide both a large icon version (like the one in the screen shot) and a small icon version that didn\'t take up nearly as much screen real estate? Is there support in Mozilla that would allow all themes to do this?

#34 Suggestions-small icon option, gray, move home

by CNeb96 <cneb96@hotmail.com>

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 12:12 PM

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I really like the new look. I just have a few suggestions. 1. Move the home button up with the other default buttons. 2. The look for Mail and Mozilla seem quite different. I like the Messenger look better. 3. I agree with other posts that a gray version would be great. 4. Is there a good way to provide both a large icon version (like the one in the screen shot) and a small icon version that didn\'t take up nearly as much screen real estate? Is there support in Mozilla that would allow all themes to do this?

#37 Are we using PNG yet?

by damian <daemonc@netscape.net>

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 12:48 PM

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Will the new skin finally use PNG images, or are we still using GIFs? (which is illegal, right?)

#38 Re: Are we using PNG yet?

by dave532

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 12:54 PM

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It's probably a safe bet that the Netscape legal team have made sure that Netscape uses image creation software that's licensed to create GIF images and as this skin is contributed by Netscape there should be no legal issues.

However I do think that PNG based images would be cool.

#77 Re: Re: Are we using PNG yet?

by peterlairo <Peter@Lairo.com>

Thursday April 5th, 2001 9:29 AM

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What is the advantage of using PNG?

#88 Re: Re: Re: Are we using PNG yet?

by AlexBishop <alex@mozillazine.org>

Friday April 6th, 2001 1:39 PM

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The advantage of using PNG images is that they can do pretty much everything GIFs can, but without the legal issues.

CompuServe invented GIFS in the 1980s to allow its members to swap images without huge downloads. It uses LZW compression to achieve this. Unisys own the patent to this particular type of compression. With the growth of the Web GIFs became very popular, sometimes being the only option for particular types of images. So Unisys decided that anyone who uses GIFs should pay for them. Something ridiculous like several thousand dollars a site. Some graphic manipulation software manufacturers have deals with Unisys, so if you use their products you'll already be licensed and won't have to pay.

Essentially the problem is that GIFs use patented software, which isn't acceptable in an open source project such as Mozilla.

Alex

#89 Re: Re: Re: Re: Are we using PNG yet?

by AlexBishop <alex@mozillazine.org>

Friday April 6th, 2001 1:41 PM

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See <http://www.unisys.com/unisys/lzw/> for Unisys's spin on the situation.

Alex

#92 Re: Re: Re: Are we using PNG yet?

by damian <daemonc@netscape.net>

Saturday April 7th, 2001 7:28 PM

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Alpha transparency. Could be used for some cool effects in themes.

#39 Movable toolbars

by dave532

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 1:04 PM

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When are we going to get movable toolbars like Netscape 4.x had? <http://www.mozillazine.or…/logs/2000-1-6-SKINS.html>

In that log from Jan 2000 hyatt claims he's working on making the toolbars reorderable. What happened to that?

It'd be great to bring back the IRC moz developer chats too :)

#76 Re: Movable toolbars

by uksi

Thursday April 5th, 2001 9:06 AM

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As far as I heard, movable toolbars, dockable toolbars and other cool dynamic things are going to be post-1.0 features.

#40 I think I preferred the old one...

by AlexBishop <alex@mozillazine.org>

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 1:13 PM

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The buttons look like they were made out of Playdoh (Plasticine-like stuff that small children play with) and the borders around them are too thick. And, no offence to whoever made them, but the new My Sidebar tab titles suck.

Having said that, I quite like some of the new blues, especially the Taskbar shade (which, purple or not, I think is the same as the Navigation bar colour) and the mail message highlight. The new drop-down menus (as in 'All Engines') are great - I always thought the ones in the old Modern let the theme down a bit. Ditto the new scrollbars - very nice.

I love the envelope picture on the Mail toolbar. If space is a problem, why can\'t it be moved to the other side (just before the 'N')? The background for the text labels has to go though.

I wish the dividers (between My Sidebar and the content area etc.) could be like the ones from PR3. They were gorgeous.

I guess Netscape is making a new Modern theme because they want Netscape 6.5 (or whatever they call their Mozilla 1.0 release) to look different from the tragedy which was Netscape 6 (which I'm using now... the Navigator component is very good).

Alex

#41 I think I preferred the old one...

by AlexBishop <alex@mozillazine.org>

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 1:14 PM

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The buttons look like they were made out of Playdoh (Plasticine-like stuff that small children play with) and the borders around them are too thick. And, no offence to whoever made them, but the new My Sidebar tab titles suck.

Having said that, I quite like some of the new blues, especially the Taskbar shade (which, purple or not, I think is the same as the Navigation bar colour) and the mail message highlight. The new drop-down menus (as in 'All Engines') are great - I always thought the ones in the old Modern let the theme down a bit. Ditto the new scrollbars - very nice.

I love the envelope picture on the Mail toolbar. If space is a problem, why can\'t it be moved to the other side (just before the 'N')? The background for the text labels has to go though.

I wish the dividers (between My Sidebar and the content area etc.) could be like the ones from PR3. They were gorgeous.

I guess Netscape is making a new Modern theme because they want Netscape 6.5 (or whatever they call their Mozilla 1.0 release) to look different from the tragedy which was Netscape 6 (which I'm using now... the Navigator component is very good).

Alex

#43 Re: I think I preferred the old one...

by saberunit02

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 2:59 PM

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I wouldn't say that the sidebar sucks, but it would look better if the color scheme matched. On my computer the sidebar looks blue and the browser looks purple. Blue throughout is better, but silver grey (modern-mozillium) would be the best. The buttons in general would probably look better if the inactive buttons fade in with the nav toolbar like the current modern theme.

#54 I agree. Icons look KDE-cheesy

by mpercy

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 8:48 PM

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No offense to anyone that likes KDE ;) but IMHO the icons in Mail/News look like crap, just like KDE. They are gaudy and brightly colored with dark borders... I think it looks unpolished and unprofessional.

Call me a trendwh***, but a nice alternative is something like MS and Apple are going towards with some 32- or at least 16-bit buttons with \\\"glowy\\\" colorful inside-icons but sharp, defined, realistic chrome button borders... that are not outlines with what looks like a thick black crayon. The designers were really much more on the right track with the current modern skin in this respect.

OTOH, the beautiful shaded envelope image on the toolbar is awesome! I think it adds some real polish and professionalism to the design of the app. Every component should have something like that in the toolbar, it is definitely worth the 50 - 70 horizontal pixels it would take up.

Regardless, I appreciate the effort Netscape and the design team are putting into creating a sweet UI to Moz. Thanks a lot guys!

Mike

#42 replacing modern?

by jesse <jruderman@hmc.edu>

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 1:25 PM

Reply to this message

It sounds like this skin is going to replace Modern. Why? I like the current Modern skin. (Could changing the toolbar color be an option within the skin?)

Btw, a few problems visible in the screenshot: the scrollbars look recessed. The toolbar buttons in the browser look disabled.

#44 my opinions

by thelem

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 3:00 PM

Reply to this message

The new messenger looks good, and colour makes the icons easier to use. But I don't like the dimples under the toolbar buttons - they have no relation to the icon.

Navigator sucks compared to the current skin, I can see no improvements.

Oh, and Asa: This skin is not an alternative skin, it is a replacement to the existing modern skin.

#48 Re: my opinions

by bzbarsky

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 5:02 PM

Reply to this message

Yes... and the modern skin is an alternative to the default skin, which is Classic.

#56 Re: my opinions

by asa <asa@mozilla.org>

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 11:01 PM

Reply to this message

It's an alternate skin. What part of alternate do you no understand. Mozilla has a default skin called Classic. Mozilla has an alternate skin called Modern. This new Modern will replace the old Modern. It is _still_ an alternate skin. When Mozilla starts shipping with Modern as the default (which it won't as long as I'm around) then you can tell me it is not an alternative skin. Until then, it is. Is this really difficult to understand. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

#59 default for Netscape 6.next

by macpeep

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 11:56 PM

Reply to this message

How much are you willing to bet about this being the *DEFAULT* skin for Netscape's next 6.something version? So much for alternate.

#61 Re: default for Netscape 6.next

by asa <asa@mozilla.org>

Wednesday April 4th, 2001 9:03 AM

Reply to this message

I'm willing to bet quite a bit that this will be the default skin for Netscape 6.x. But you know what. I'm not concerned about Netscape 6. It's not my job to be concerned about Netscape 6. It's my job to care about Mozilla. If you are really that concerned about Netscape 6 the place to communicate that concern is not Mozilla or the Mozilla community. Go find a Netscape 6 feedback form or a Netscape 6 newsgroup and complain.

--Asa

#67 default skin for Netscape 6

by macpeep

Wednesday April 4th, 2001 10:34 AM

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Really? (no sarcasm) Cause that means there will be both Modern 2 and this new Modern 3, right? That's a total of 3 fully maintained skins, correct? Would Modern 2 be abandoned by Mozilla but continued by Netscape then?

#73 Re: default skin for Netscape 6

by asa <asa@mozilla.org>

Wednesday April 4th, 2001 9:20 PM

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I believe that the plan is to replace Modern 2 with Modern 3 in both Mozilla and Netscape's next release. I don't think that we want to maintain 3 themes in Mozilla and I'm not positive but I suspect that Netscape doesn't want to maintain two versions of New Modern (they're not maintaining 'Blue', the first modern).\

--Asa

#80 I dont understand

by googolplex

Thursday April 5th, 2001 10:55 AM

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Can somebody explain to me why classic is the default skin. Personally I think it looks very un professional. It is not as polished as modern is now. mozilla needs a skin that is not as modern as modern but not as classic as classic.

Also I dont understand why we want classic to be the default but then say "Mozilla isn't Netscape". The classic skin reminds people of Netscape Communicator.

Jeff

#87 Re: I dont understand

by asa <asa@mozilla.org>

Thursday April 5th, 2001 10:18 PM

Reply to this message

Classic is the default Mozilla skin. It may not always be (are you offering to contribute something better?) but Modern will never be the default Mozilla skin.

--Asa

#90 Mozilla default theme

by Sparkster

Friday April 6th, 2001 6:15 PM

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Why don't you look at mozilla.themes.org? Maybe you could find some great themes there. Pick the best of them. Then make a Mozilla Theme Contest (like the Netscape theme contest). At the end, put the best oft those themes together (including the original classic theme) and make a big public vote. This way it should be possible to find a new great default theme. Although I'm not sure, if there is enough time until 1.0... I would highly appreciate a new theme. Mozilla really shouldn't look like Netscape 4.x...

#102 Re: Re: I dont understand

by tny

Monday April 9th, 2001 2:06 PM

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Is that because you want to distinguish Mozilla from Netscape?

#45 I like them both

by googolplex

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 4:09 PM

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I like both the modern and this new modern. I hope the now "old" one will be an option as well. I think it looks a little less "heavy" in some parts such as the navigator buttons. I also dont like how it is a little purple instead of blue. I think mail looks much better, however. Jeff

#50 What about this as the default skin?

by tvinci

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 5:55 PM

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It seems less drastic from the modern looks. Or use the latest aphrodite? <http://jeff.newdream.net/…r/mozilla/ui/concept.html>

#53 Builds???

by rgelb <nospam@nospam.com>

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 6:51 PM

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Has Asa given up commenting on builds? It was pretty useful.

#60 Re: Builds???

by macpeep

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 11:58 PM

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Yeah, he is currently focusing on commenting that this is an alternative skin. A-L-T-E-R-N-A-T-I-V-E, as in "the default one for Netscape 6.5". What part of that don't you understand?

#62 Re: Re: Builds???

by asa <asa@mozilla.org>

Wednesday April 4th, 2001 9:05 AM

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Mozillazine is a forum for Mozilla discussion and advocacy. It is not a forum for Netscape 6 chat. When someone says "default" in a talkback at mozillaZine I assume "Mozilla" not "Netscape 6.x". I think that my assumption is completely reasonable.

--Asa

#65 Enough.

by ess

Wednesday April 4th, 2001 9:33 AM

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This constant harping isn't interesting to anyone else, you two. Take it to e-mail.

#68 What about Builds

by rgelb <nospam@nospam.com>

Wednesday April 4th, 2001 10:34 AM

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>>I think that my assumption is completely reasonable. <<

I think so too. Macpeep, chill on the semantics.

Asa, will you continue commenting on the builds?

#69 semantics and stuff...

by macpeep

Wednesday April 4th, 2001 10:46 AM

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I disagree. I agree that I should chill.. I was out of line. As far as semantics go, I was truly worried about this skin being the default in *NETSCAPE 6.x*. I know Classic is the default in Mozilla so I don't care all that much about alternative skins. I *DO* care about Netscape 6.x's default skin and Modern 2 is currently the default so I fear this one will become the default. The public feedback will NOT be pretty.

#72 Re: semantics and stuff...

by asa <asa@mozilla.org>

Wednesday April 4th, 2001 9:13 PM

Reply to this message

<my opinion> This really isn\'t the place for Netscape 6.x advocacy. This is a forum about Mozilla. If someone wants to communicate to Netscape he should send them email or post to the netscape 6 newsgroups. The people that read and respond to comments here are Mozilla developers, testers and advocates not netscape marketing decisionmakers. Netscape probably will ship its next release with this latest (3rd) revision to the modern theme and if someone was really concerned about that he would be expressing that concern to the wrong group of people by commenting to this forum. </my opinion>

--Asa

#55 Good start

by chrisgonyea <cgonyea@nhvt.net>

Tuesday April 3rd, 2001 10:52 PM

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I think the Navigator part should assume an appearance similar to the Mail program. I love the new toolbar and look for the mail program, definitely a huge improvement and it makes the mail program look very professional. The Navigator part however should look like its mail counterpart to be consistant and to make the interface look very professional. If navigator has the same appearance as the new mail look, then I think the browser will be taken much more seriously since it will look so much more professional. May I add that Internet Explorer will pale in comparision to this UI.

#63 Good Start

by eMonk <kmg1@post.com>

Wednesday April 4th, 2001 9:09 AM

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From the screenshot, it seems to me that the design is very far from complete.

The overall color change is an improvement. The changes to the browser window are for the most part nice. I like the shape of the sidebar tabs. The toolbar button outlines are a little to heavy as some have suggested.

But the mail toolbar is where I have problems. The "blister" effect on the toolbar buttons make the buttons less distinct and I suspect they would be harder to hit than the current buttons. The text for the toolbar buttons seem to be enclosed in a horizontal box, which seems to indicate that they are part of the same element when they are not. The envelope icon on the left is a nice touch, but I suspect this makes the "Get Msg" button more difficult to hit because it's farther away from the edge of the screen.

I'm curious as to why this is an "upgrade" for Modern rather than an entirely new skin? I'm pretty happy with the usability of Modern 2.0. Besides the color tweak, I can't see why it needs a redesign. I think Netscape is making a mistake if they think it's a good thing to have the UI vary from release to release just because they can.

By the way, for those of you who posted about wanting a gray look for Mozilla, check out the GreyModern skin on x.themes.org.

#71 Re: Good Start

by harpoonflyby

Wednesday April 4th, 2001 12:42 PM

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eMonk: \"I think Netscape is making a mistake if they think it\'s a good thing to have the UI vary from release to release just because they can. \"

Why?

#74 Let's not be too hasty

by ShadowHawk

Thursday April 5th, 2001 7:02 AM

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Please keep the current Modern theme as an option. The newer one proposed seems a bit \"over the top\" to me.

#75 Let's not be too hasty

by ShadowHawk

Thursday April 5th, 2001 7:03 AM

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Please keep the current Modern theme as an option. The proposed new one seeems a bit "over the top" to me.

#78 Responsive to Comments

by tny

Thursday April 5th, 2001 9:54 AM

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Does anyone else notice that a lot of the changes made are responsive to the criticisms of the original Modern2? For instance, several folks complained that the navigator buttons in Modern 2 aren't 3-D enough; so now we have more 3-D navigator buttons, and folks are complaining about how thick the lines are!

Me, I think this theme (which obviously isn't finished yet) is heading in the right direction, and I'm not about to criticize either the author of this theme or Netscape. I'm used to Modern2, I got used to Modern1, and I actually liked the old EarlyBlue theme best (and yes, I have installed that early-blue theme and I switch to it sometimes). I doubt that the changes between Modern3 and Modern2 are going to turn people off Netscape. (I'm not sure if they'll help distinguish a later Netscape from the IMHO premature 6.0 product, but hell, it's worth trying: Mozilla today is much better than 6.0 was in November.)

That said, I would prefer to see a little more work on the browser window; there have been some interesting points made above.

Comments for other aspiring theme designers: I wonder if a more translucent look might not be more aesthetically pleasing, though, given the direction the two major commercial operating systems are headed? Linux folks you don't have to worry about too much; they'll probably download alternate themes anyway or make their own (I imagine we'll start see a lot of new E and Sawfish themes designed to match Moz and a lot of Moz themes designed to harmonize with the existing E and Sawfish themes). But OSX folks will want something that looks good with Aqua, and XP folks will want something that looks good with XP. (Not native, just harmonizing). So it might be worth it for some UI guru out there to work up a theme with a translucent color scheme that will look good with either (or both), which I think Classic (and possibly Modern2) will not. (Aphrodite's Sullivan is good, but not quite what I am thinking of . . .)

#79 Visuals: A, Usability: D

by peterlairo <Peter@Lairo.com>

Thursday April 5th, 2001 10:04 AM

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The look between the two apps MUST be unified - there is no way around that one.

The mail style is very professional lookin, so that style should be used for all apps.

The mail style needs some serious tweaking:

1. The icons look great but are way to small. This will be a big problem with far sighted people. Also aiming a an icon is too difficult at the current size. One nice thing about NC4.x and the "classic" theme, is that the icons were large (idiot proof).

2. Although the envelope graphic looks cool, it gets in the way of usability. People will look for their icons starting from the left edge, and will always be forced to "scan" over the envelope - not good after prologed use. I suggest to loose it (sigh).

3. If the graphic stays, then the browser (and all other apps) should have a graphic too.

4. We don't want a Netscape throbber. Please use a Mozilla throbber.

5. The address book icon on the taskbar is too washed out. I suggest to put only one silouette of a person that is much larger and clearer to recognize.

6. The mail throbber should be larger

7. Did I mention that the mail icons need to be much larger? Oh yes, but it's important.

8. Most other comments here I agree with totally: go/search buttons to dark, browser wheel in taskbar too bulky/blurry, browser icon borders to bold/thick, mail icons text shouldn't be in a box, scrollbars look recessed, need option to hide/show icons text and adjust icons size accordingly.

9. I DO like the 3D effects under the mail icons and taskbar items.

10. This theme should be in addition to the Modern theme since it will be so different. Call this theme: "Classic 2". Or at least put modern on x.themes.org.

#86 Re: Visuals: A, Usability: D

by asa <asa@mozilla.org>

Thursday April 5th, 2001 10:14 PM

Reply to this message

"4. We don't want a Netscape throbber. Please use a Mozilla throbber." The person designing this theme works on daily Netscape 6.x builds (these are just like daily Mozilla builds but with all the Netscape bits added on). He is a Netscape designer and is designing this theme for Netscape. When he offers the theme to Mozilla he will (or someone else will) remove the N throbber and replace it with a M throbber before it is checked into the Mozilla tree. But Netscape, I can assure you, is not going to put an M throbber in their next release and asking them too is rather silly.

"10. This theme should be in addition to the Modern theme since it will be so different. Call this theme: "Classic 2". Or at least put modern on x.themes.org." If you like the current Modern then feel free to pull it from a current build (or pull it from CVS by date after it's gone) and maintain it on your own personal site or at x.themes. From a QA standpoint I don't want a 3rd theme in Mozilla distributions and will work to see that we have a default and an alternate and no more. Blue (the first Modern) is a perfect example of why more than two is a bad idea. Copying themes isn't that hard and XPInstall is your friend.

--Asa

#81 My Sidebar tabs

by sremick

Thursday April 5th, 2001 3:23 PM

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First thing that struck me was how much it made Mozilla look like a Palm m50x ;)

Anyhow, for the most part I like the new look. However, the thing I dislike about it the most are the new tabs in My Sidebar. They look cartoony and childish. The tabs from the current Modern are polished and slick. I much prefer the straighter edges on the current Modern, and the shadow effect is just awesome.

This is one item that should be left alone, IMHO.

#91 image switch

by AlMalossi <AlMalossi@gmx.net>

Saturday April 7th, 2001 2:21 AM

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So some people seems to like the envelope image and some want pure visual usability why not make a switch in the preferences to toggle between a state with nice pictures (yes i like them, and would find it a pitty to kick them out for usability reasons) and one without.

This should make both partys happy, and also solve some width problems.

Just one point for the "envelope"-picture: When I think of a real killer-user: My mother, she is already confused when ns4 opens all this windows (like mail compose) with different use. For users like her this describing images are quite usefull. A real linux user shoud have the possibility to get rid of all this completly unnecessary image staff and have just the first letter of each function (reduce to the max) B F R S Back Forward Reload Stop

#93 A Great Theme.

by jthg

Saturday April 7th, 2001 11:31 PM

Reply to this message

*I* think this is a great theme.

First, the browser window. Newbies will welcome the distinct-contrasting-thick buttons because they help to answer the eternal question of "where to click". Also the way that the modern theme is layed out, the focus tends to jump right to the location box (and everything inside); after all, isn't the most important part of the web browser the address of the current page? No, the address is the second most important part of the web browser window. The actual site is the most important and this is emphasized by the use of paleness, flowability, and unobtrusive.

However, the sidebar seems to go against the over theme of the top bar. It seems a bit darker, drawing attention to the selected tab and away from the main page. Maybe the selected tab should be a lighter color then the other tabs. Maybe all the tabs should be colored more consistantly with the top bar (lighter). Maybe I should stop complaining... In anycase, the shape of the tabs flow towards the page... drawing the eye with them.

Then their is the mail window - wow - cool! The first thing that the eyes goes to is the top bar, but then it is right to the selected message (good). But, as other people have flamed, the top bar is not consistant with the top bar of the browser. For example, the colored highlights are a cool effect, but on browser top bar, there are none. I tend to like the added color, and I tend to like the mail icon on the left... if space was a concern, would it be possible to have it as a background image of the top bar? I also appreciated the way the text is set off from the buttons.

But, I disgress from consistency. Maybe just having text under both would even out the size diffence of the two sets of buttons.

I really cannot see why anyone would not like this theme... yes it does have some minor flaws, but overall it is giant leap in the right direction. As my Dad would put it, "you done good."

#94 Why Oh Why can't we have a single taskbar

by TonyG <tony.gorman@blueyonder.co.Yuk>

Sunday April 8th, 2001 9:45 AM

Reply to this message

I really wish we had a single taskbar along the bottom. it would free up a bit of precious screen estate and it would - imho - look a lot neater.

#97 Re: Why Oh Why can't we have a single taskbar

by basic <_basic@yahoo.com>

Monday April 9th, 2001 12:13 AM

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That is part of the app (or I should say chrome/XUL) not the skin. Someone should do a good hack and file a bug. I might do it when and if I find the time to do Moz-hacking. In the meantime...

#100 I might give it a go...

by TonyG <tony.gorman@blueyonder.co.Yuk>

Monday April 9th, 2001 3:33 AM

Reply to this message

I have been keen to do more than bughunt for a while now, since I am a programmer I thought I should get into the code.

f anyone knows of anyone who has done a single taskbar, can you let me know?

Meanwhile, I will have a go. Any recommended reading would be useful. Tried to do something like this so many times but always give up as the documentation is not that easy to find or indeed that easy to follow once you've found it.

#110 Re: I might give it a go...

by Jubal

Friday April 13th, 2001 2:59 PM

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Well...I dont know if you can use it at all, but six months ago or so I made a skin with a single taskbar, but I gave up the project after the new packaging format came into effect... screenshot: <http://www.geocities.com/…krillner/moz-1taskbar.jpg>

#104 Re: new screenshot

by jhewitt <joe@joehewitt.com>

Monday April 9th, 2001 2:48 PM

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We've been lobbying to have the status bar and the taskbar combined for some time. Just about everyone agrees that those stupid "Business Tech Fun" things have to go. Ben Goodger did the xul work to remove this many weeks ago but we need approval from certain folks at Netscape before we can do it.

#105 Re: Re: new screenshot

by dave532

Monday April 9th, 2001 6:08 PM

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I remember seeing a bug in bugzilla (so long ago I can't remember) and Ben said he'd check in a patch for the mozilla codebase that would remove this bar.

Could Ben not just check in this patch for mozilla and allow Netscape to decide whether they want to keep the current layout or not.

#106 bug 43797

by dave532

Monday April 9th, 2001 7:00 PM

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Found the bug it's 43797 <http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43797>

If this fix is checked in for 1.0 it needs to be checked in at least one release before 1.0 (e.g. 0.9) so that people have a chance to comment on it. Otherwise it should wait for a post 1.0 release.

#107 Re: bug 43797

by asa <asa@mozilla.org>

Tuesday April 10th, 2001 6:03 PM

Reply to this message

I don't think that this needs multiple Milestone cycles to get tested before 1.0. It's been in the works for a long time and the overwhelming majority of comments about it have been requesting the two be combined.

--Asa

#98 Re: Why Oh Why can't we have a single taskbar

by basic <_basic@yahoo.com>

Monday April 9th, 2001 12:17 AM

Reply to this message

That is part of the app (or I should say chrome/XUL) not the skin. Someone should do a good hack and file a bug. I might do it when and if I find the time to do Moz-hacking. In the meantime...

#95 Looks good, now is it really for Netsacpe6?

by fgxh298

Sunday April 8th, 2001 10:21 AM

Reply to this message

The new design is cool. I like the 3D things under the icons. The gray idea is good too. Personally I liked Modern1 and Early Blue the best. Modern2 is just plain ugly. Now this is a step in the right direction. I don't think that this is for Netscape6. I think that the hole reasoning behind this is that Netscape is releasing mozilla1.0 as Netscape7 and they needed a new look so people won't think it's more of the same. Fresh look,lots more speed, loads more stability, sounds like enough to change to 7. I could go on but I won't.

#101 Re: Looks good, now is it really for Netsacpe6?

by AlexBishop <alex@mozillazine.org>

Monday April 9th, 2001 11:57 AM

Reply to this message

I still think it will be called Netscape 6.5. Releasing the next version as Netscape 7 would be admitting that Netscape's sixth-generation releases were a failure.

Alex

#96 Put the envelope motif on the right!

by calroth

Sunday April 8th, 2001 10:38 PM

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In mail, I'd suggest putting the envelope background on the right hand side, and (maybe) layering the throbber over it. At the moment it looks great as visual design, but people do expect their icons to start on the far left, so why not put the envelope on the right instead?

#99 new screenshot

by macpeep

Monday April 9th, 2001 3:26 AM

Reply to this message

Can we get new screenshots of the skin as it progresses? That way, people can comment more on it and give their opinion instead of seeing a beta and then seeing it next in their nightly build - as "final".

#103 Re: new screenshot

by jhewitt <joe@joehewitt.com>

Monday April 9th, 2001 2:41 PM

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The skin will continue to evolve after it is checked in, so you'll have plenty of opportunity to comment. The version I hope to land late this week or next week (pending QA banging on it a bit) will have many issues which I will enumerate a bug report sometime so you all know what Marlon is actively working on changing

#108 design evolving

by jhewitt <joe@joehewitt.com>

Tuesday April 10th, 2001 9:00 PM

Reply to this message

Marlon is working on incorporating much of the feedback we've gotten from this Talkback, on the newsgroups, and in general into a new revision. He's changing so much stuff that it's likely we'll push the landing back a bit so we can get it all done. Specifically, he's made all new icons for toolbar buttons in mail, etc... will be toning down the "purplish blue" color to a more "grayish blue" color, and a few other little things here and there.

As soon as he's done with his mockups I'll post a screenshot to n.p.m.ui so you guys can give us more feedback.

#109 Re: design evolving

by AlexBishop <alex@mozillazine.org>

Wednesday April 11th, 2001 12:16 PM

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I'm sure a lot of mozillaZine readers don't have much time to read the newsgroups, so could you post a link to the new screenshot here as well?

Alex

#111 2004: If anyone wants to see the screenshot ...

by martrootamm

Monday June 14th, 2004 5:41 PM

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... linked from the article, then check out this link:

<http://web.archive.org/we…om/mozilla/modern-new.jpg>

#112 Re: 2004: If anyone wants to see the screenshot ..

by jweb_guru

Monday August 8th, 2005 11:10 PM

Reply to this message

Thanks. This was useful in determining exactly what everyone was talking about.