mozdev.org UpdateFriday January 12th, 2001David Boswell writes in:
couldn't mozilla be a replacement for java? when will we see the first onlinebanking mozilla component? who needs java anymore if you can make a mozilla app? Mozilla can't be a replacement for Java, although both can be used to create cross-platform apps, Mozilla, for example, doesn't have the graphical APIs that Java has. Each kinda fits into its own different niche. Alex ....no. Damn, most of the 'Mozilla as a platform' hype is pretty damn stupid, but this has to be the stupidest I've heard yet. No offense. :) As for 'who needs java anymore' - even for applets (which are mostly useless anyway and certainly not the prime use of Java, although it doesn't seem you were considering that), I would say that the > 95% of users who don't use Mozilla might well be the answer to your question. (And do NOT expect Mozilla to become a more significant browser in terms of user percentages until/unless AOL take up Mozilla, or some of the other web-devices catch on; even then, don't expect it to hit 50%...) --sam > "Damn, most of the 'Mozilla as a platform' hype is pretty damn stupid, but this has to be the stupidest I've heard yet. No offense. :)" maybe it's stupid, i just posted this out of curiosity, not because i really care. and i don't think, that is is a "pretty damn stupid hype". i already use more usefull mozilla apps, than i ever found usefull java apps. and i can't wait for the first mozilla rpg games, the mozilla office suite or whatever. mozilla applications are as plattform independent as mozilla is, are easy to do (an application written in javascript? wow...), look much better than most java apps and most of all, they live in the internet. so why shouldn't i use mozilla as a devel plattform? i can reach the same goals for which i would use java (plattform independence) and much more. > "(And do NOT expect Mozilla to become a more significant browser in terms of user percentages until/unless AOL take up Mozilla, or some of the other web-devices catch on; even then, don't expect it to hit 50%...)" no, i don't expect mozilla to become the most used browser out there. but mozilla is not a browser. as soon as mozilla development goes on, there will be the first mozilla applications which have nothing to do with the browser and need only the base mozilla (NOT the browser, mail client, composer, etc). jabberzilla and chatzilla are good examples. those apps will grow the mozilla user base, if they use the browser component or not. i guess that a lot of people will stop laughing as soon as they see what mozilla is really for... ;) and i'm not in a mozilla hype or something, nor do i have anything to do with it. i just think it's a really interesting project. I love it when the ignorami are shut down. Of course, you always have to wonder \"Why bother obtaining a profile when you exist just to condemn the whole thing?\" And for the record, I do expect Moz to become the most used browser out there. Trust me, we developers like standards compliance... I'd *like* Mozilla to become the most used browser out there, but I'm certain that it won't happen in the foreseeable future. Relatively few people are upgrading to Netscape 6 (out of Netscape 4.x's already small userbase), and I personally know several people who've tried and then gone back... Eventually a Mozilla-based engine (NN 6.1, 6.5, whatever) might mop up the remainder of the NN 4.x users who haven't yet defected to Microsoft, but I don't think we could expect more than maybe 10% share from that. The best result I can see for Mozilla in terms of market share is if AOL adopt it as their standard browser. That will give it a significant share. But I don't (again, in foreseeable future, which means Microsoft operating systems for the next three years or more at least) see it getting more than that. With a perfectly good (not quite *as* good in terms of standards, but not bad) browser pre-installed and necessary as part of the OS (more or less), it's just really unlikely that users install anything else - even if it gets to the point where the browser is better for users as well as for standards, which Mozilla hasn't really yet reached. BTW, apologies for being kind of rude in the original post. I'm (mostly) a Java developer so I know what Java is really used for, and it isn't applets. If you're thinking only of applets, then sure, I would agree that Mozilla's application development features are not much less useful than applets :> Without meaning to be rude *again*, I do also think that the idea Chatzilla might encourage non-Mozilla-browser users to use the platform is rather doubtful, because it's really *extremely* bad, but ah well, I'm biased there too as an IRC client developer :) Still, I'd even rather use mIRC than *that*... --sam ps I have a login here because I like Mozilla (the browser), care about web standards, and would also like to see more non-corporate browser features like Mozilla's ad blocking and potential selective JavaScript enabling. That doesn't mean I have to follow sheeplike all the various hype, propoganda, and other general opinions that a theoretical 'Mozilla community' might be said to espouse. hello :) i agree with you, that mozilla won't be the most used browser in the NEAR future, but it will grow. MS Windows is loosing marketshare. slow but steady. mozilla is the only FREE available webbrowser for everyone. IE is not free, you have to bye MS Windows to get it. so you CAN tell your users that they need mozilla to get the content. for example you could make a great online game using the mozilla plattform. this would not be very hard and run on every plattform. users would have to download mozilla to play this game. if more of those apps are developed, mozilla WILL get a huge user base. and just imagine what happens, if mozilla gets a plattform independent, internet based, standards compliant and free office suite... mozilla will bring some great apps to the user, chatzilla is just a small example. but chatzilla is not so bad, i already use it quite often, cause it's easy and i don't IRC so often so an easy and nice client is just right. although i still prefer bitchX for longer IRC sessions. :) most newbie computer users don't use irc cause it's more complicated than simple webchats. chatzilla could change that. and jabberzilla could bring jabber to the masses. i don't know any good jabber client for unix yet, so i'm really looking forward for the first usable jabberzilla client. and something else... installing new software written for mozilla is as easy as clicking a button! i think it's great. One of the hopes that I have had for Mozilla is that it could be the basis for cross-platform applications that can manage both GUI and printing. Up until now Java has been just about the only option in this area. Kylix is promissing Windows + Linux, but that leaves out the Mac, which I would prefer not to do. A really good scripting API, and a decent scripting language, like Ruby or Python (I don\\\\\\\'t know Perl) would make this plausible. The trick here is to have all the slow stuff, and all the platform specific stuff, managed by native coded Mozilla routines. This looks to me like an area with great promise! "... and potential selective JavaScript enabling" um, potential? it's already there. --Asa Edit your prefs.js file like this: pref("capability.policy.annoyances.sites", "http://somesite.com"); pref("capability.policy.annoyances.window.open", "noAccess"); for example. See also http://www.mozilla.org/projects/security/components/configPolicy.html and bug http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=858 --Asa Uh, I guess I should've added mys'elf as cc to those bugs back when I last looked at them many months ago. Thanks a lot for filling me in. Of course, this kind of thing really needs a user interface (which I presume won't make it into commercial builds? Shame, as it would be a killer feature, "block images" is already pretty damn hot). Thanks again, I really appreciate this :) --sam know i know, what titles are for... :) for all "threaded view" users, here is the text again: hello :) i agree with you, that mozilla won't be the most used browser in the NEAR future, but it will grow. MS Windows is loosing marketshare. slow but steady. mozilla is the only FREE available webbrowser for everyone. IE is not free, you have to bye MS Windows to get it. so you CAN tell your users that they need mozilla to get the content. for example you could make a great online game using the mozilla plattform. this would not be very hard and run on every plattform. users would have to download mozilla to play this game. if more of those apps are developed, mozilla WILL get a huge user base. and just imagine what happens, if mozilla gets a plattform independent, internet based, standards compliant and free office suite... mozilla will bring some great apps to the user, chatzilla is just a small example. but chatzilla is not so bad, i already use it quite often, cause it's easy and i don't IRC so often so an easy and nice client is just right. although i still prefer bitchX for longer IRC sessions. :) most newbie computer users don't use irc cause it's more complicated than simple webchats. chatzilla could change that. and jabberzilla could bring jabber to the masses. i don't know any good jabber client for unix yet, so i'm really looking forward for the first usable jabberzilla client. and something else... installing new software written for mozilla is as easy as clicking a button! i think it's great ehm... i completely messed up. of course it should be "now" in the first sentence and the whole thing was supposed to be an answer to the last topic where i made my answer unclickable in theaded mode with not setting a topic. outch. I agree there is a good reason to have a simple IRC client built into browsers. I don't think Chatzilla is it (yet), but I hope it (or another project) gets there. If they concentrate on absolute ease-of-use and avoid advanced features then they can create a useful basic client (e.g. one channel at a time or whatever). I don't think anybody is going to create a worthwhile, popular online game that requires Mozilla. Why? It would make more sense to either create a kind of 'full' online game (which requires its own native-code client, has full graphics etc.) or to create a web-game which can run in all browsers. In any case I don't want to see 'Mozilla-only' sites, just as I don't like to see 'IE-only' sites. That would kind of defeat the point of supporting Web standards... As for usage increasing... I think usage *will* gradually increase - *some* of those Netscape 4.x users will convert - but bearing in mind that it's currently below 1%, there is a lot of room for increase. ;) I just don't see it getting above 10%, unless either Mozilla gets some real killer features (unlikely), AOL adopt Mozilla, or Linux becomes significant as a client operating system (unlikely for at least a few years). --sam >> "I don't think anybody is going to create a worthwhile, popular online game that requires Mozilla. Why? It would make more sense to either create a kind of 'full' online game (which requires its own native-code client, has full graphics etc.) or to create a web-game which can run in all browsers." well, and i still think mozilla would be great for online games. a "full" online game is really hard to produce and you need to make native clients for EVERY platform. that costs a lot of money and work. a browser compatible webgame OTOH would be much more restricted and even harder to produce (unless all browsers do exactly what they are supposed to do). >> "In any case I don't want to see 'Mozilla-only' sites, just as I don't like to see 'IE-only' sites. That would kind of defeat the point of supporting Web standards..." of course, but games are not simple sites. people pay money to play those games or at least they have to download a special client or a plugin. so why shouldn't they just download the 5 megs of mozilla and the game component? this wouldn't be a simple browser plugin but a whole new game system that sits on top of the mozilla base, has almost no restrictions and runs on every plattform, mozilla runs on. the only downside would be performance. to make state-of-the-art 3d-graphics online shooter or whatever you would of course have to write a native client. but online rpg's for example, don't need those highend graphics. that's where i see the power of mozilla. > As for usage increasing... well, i'm almost certain that mozilla WILL get some of those killer features, aol WILL adopt mozilla and non-windows plattforms (not just windows) WILL become more and more popular. maybe it will be a very long way to roll, but you can't stop the rock! ;) hello, i have a few OT comments: <p> i went back to netscape.com and now the install for their themes work! 'sky pilot' is fantastic! (better even than modern, i'd say) </p> <p> mozilla seems to be getting a lot snappier in the last week or two. optimizations starting to land? 8) </p> <p> Asa, thanks for the prefs.js instructions; but unfortunately no average user can be expected to find both those rather obsucre links, and would probably thus conclude that the feature does not exist. </p> <p> mz: fix unnecessarily escaped apostrophes! </p> <p> mz: user comments in buildbar section! (thanks again for that page, Asa) </p> <p> mozilla: show image name in right-click menu! </p> <p> mozilla: hold+release right-click menus -- not hold+release+click! </p> <p> oh, and how could i forget: posted with 2001011912! 8) </p> I don't expect average end users to find the javascript rules feature or the bugs and link that talk about it (I don't expect or for that matter even want end users to be using or expecting _anything_ from daily mozilla builds). I do thin that this was working in Netscape 6. My point is that the functionality is coming along and already usable by anyone above average enough to be reading a Mozilla advocacy discussion forum. There are bugs about the UI for this pref (I think you can find them from the links I gave in my post above) and I'm sure that as usual the folks working on this would love some help (patches). As far as user comments in the BuildBar is concerned, I propose that any discission of the quality of the daily build should be carried out on irc.mozilla.org #mozillazine or #qa before the build comments are posted. I don't see anything particularly useful about maintaining a record of this since things will have changed by the next morning's builds. If someone (mz included) wants to set up and maintain a discussion forum for daily builds I'd be glad to link to it in the Buildbar comments. --Asa I just tried the embeded version of mozilla and i am amazed by how fast it is!! What exactly is it that is stripped away? (besides the GUI) Why havent anyone (i can\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t...) made a decent GUI to it? I just tried the embeded version of mozilla and i am amazed by how fast it is!! What exactly is it that is stripped away? (besides the GUI) Why havent anyone (i can\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t...) made a decent GUI to it? |