Dear Mozilla developers,

why talking about bugs on the running M12 app? We even cannot install the M12 on a clean German NT4 SP5. During setup Profile selection, the whole install crashes... Sure, mozregistry.dat etc. have been deleted before later retrials with no effects.

Unless I've overseen something, I don't think it would be wise to put this kind of builds to a world wide public!

Allard Mees

Its the password proxy that is not working properly. I noticed on bug 22405 http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=22405 has been marked resolved, and basic proxy auth is in, but apparently they are not persistent (24329) http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=24329

Basically speaking, I download mozilla, assign it the same proxy settings that are working fine in ns4.7 and ie5. Mozilla still can't access anything. To me that means that proxy isn't working.

Just the other day, I had Mozilla up and running for 5 hours straight (Mind you I didn't drag any of the menus and I didn't go into search the internet as those crash frequently). The reason I had to shut it down was, I ran out of ram. The memory leaks are still pretty bad.

On the other hand, I could open as many windows as I needed and it didn't crash (Like v4.7 does). While running mozilla both explorer and nav 4.7 crashed at least once (And I wasn't even using explorer other than looking at files on my hd)

Keep up the great work!

Are you sure I do not have the necessary programming experience?

Bug 1582 already was marked for M3, M8, M9, M10, M13 and finally it is for M15...

http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1582

It will be never fixed!!!

Where do I begin? When it says "number of webshells being leaked: 10", is that as bad as I think it is?

I think the reason Ugg has not seen the improvement others have seen is because he is using the M12 milestone instead of one of the more recent nightly builds. I downloaded the file in the "latest" folder yesterday, and it was working quite nicely. It only failed at www.builder.com, and did not crash at all.

> I use mozilla every day for several > hours at a time without crashes or > freezes.

On what planet? Surely not Earth. Do you think I'm making this stuff up? M12 crashes like the bad guy's car in an action movie. I know, I sit here while it does it.

> Maybe you need some help getting > Mozilla set up.

Yes, if I were incompetent - which I'm not - that would be very helpful.

> ...like most mozilla supporters you > title your post "Mos is trash!"

"Supporter" doesn't mean "ass-kisser". I'm all for what Mozilla purports to provide. This doesn't alter the fact that it does not, as yet, provide this.

The importance of the UI and other visible aspects of Mozilla is that they are the first things people see. People want a stable, usable browser. Most people don't care to try the nightly builds twice a week, and they don't bother to forecast that stability is coming. "Mozilla is still unstable", they think.

In my mind, the importance performance of the UI can be summarized as follows:

== We want Mozilla to succeed.

=> We want Mozilla to be used by a large number of people.

=> We need the press and users who bother to download Mozilla to spread the good word.

== The press and most users who are not "committed" to Mozilla are most impressed by UIs and most annoyed by instability.

== The press and most users do not complain as loudly about standards as they do about the UI.

== The press and most users will compare Mozilla with Netscape and IE.

== Magazines like to print screen shots with arrows pointing to "nifty" UI features.

=> The success of Mozilla is sadly more closely tied to "cool" than to "important" features.

>> THEREFORE: Much attention needs to be given to the UI and to stability.

Most users don't know what XML, SSL or CSS are and they don't care. They don't mind waiting four months for Mozilla to support a three letter acronym that they don't understand, but they do want a browser soon. In the mean while, they are getting more comfortable with IE.

Standards are important to developers like myself, but all the standards in the world won't help the user base is tiny.

"What I will say is that maybe you expect too much from the UI. UI is very important but it's not the number one top issue here, other things like XUL, rendering, and DOM far out weight the fact that prefs might not always work."

Let me tell you a little story about the UI, yes?

When I launch Moz to test some of my page code - CSS being one thing it seems to handle pretty well, which Communicator 4.6 does not - the normal thing to do would be to open the file. Quick keyboard shortcut, a little OS-native file browsing, and voila. Unfortunately, if this works at all, it crashes. Same if I use the menuitem manually. So, I try opening my hard drive as a directory and drilling through it to find what I want. No good; half of my folders don't show up, for some reason. So I have to type the entire damn path into the location bar.. which takes longer than it should, because the location bar doesn't edit cleanly. Once I've done this, if I try to bookmark the file to save myself future hassle - something which I've been able to do in every other browser I've used - it won't bookmark it. In fact, it won't bookmark anything.

This is not a minor UI quibble or glitch, in my mind. When I have to bend over backwards just to open a file on my hard drive, this is a significant problem.

Prefs? It's not a case of "might not work".. it's a case of "doesn't work". In fact, the majority of new windows don't work. This is, again, a serious problem.

"Maybe part of your instabilty problem is the result of a less then stable OS."

My system is plenty stable. It runs for weeks without going down, as long as I'm using apps which I know to be stable themselves.

"I know as a developer that being told that your product is shit by people that don't have all the facts in hand really sucks the will to develop right out of ya..."

...and I know that as a user, being told that a product is great when it clearly isn't really sucks the will to evangelize right out of ya.

How do you get realplayer, flash, etc to work? I haven't been able to as of yet. Also, how on earth do you get java applets to work? Btw, will ad-blockers like AtGuard work with mozilla eventually? (they don't as of now (22.1.00 build).