colored scrollbars and stuff

banjobacon! · Post by **banjobacon!** » April 7th, 2003, 10:32 am

I found it wierd that Phoenix wasn't supporting site defined scrollbar coloring, so I looked around and I finally found out why. Apparently it's not "standard", according to the W3C. I'm sure you all know this by now.

The thing that's bothering me is that colored scrollbars are standard. If 90% (or whatever extremely high percentage it is) of internet users use IE, and they like a feature that is supported by IE, then that feature is pretty much a standard, regardless of what W3C says. Users like it, and becasue of that, webmasters are using it. It is something that cannot be ignored.

Phoenix wants to be the alternative browser for the normal internet user. That means it will have to take users away from IE. In order to do that, you have to offer the good things that IE provides. The appearance of scrollbars may seen unimportant, but if you go to a site with an IFrame right in the middle, and it has your default scrollbar coloring to it, instead of a coloring that matches the site, you're going to think it looks bad, and you'll go back to the broswer that displays it the best.

This isn't just about scrollbars. Phoenix also refused to allow alts to be displayed in tooltip bars because it wasn't the right use for alts. I understand this, but that's how it's been done, so that's how it is. Users have gotten used to it and it is something they have come to expect. It should not be provided as an extension. It should be default.

Maybe my problem isn't with Phoenix. Maybe it's with the W3C. Regardless of who is at fault, something should be done by someone.

Allenz · Post by **Allenz** » April 7th, 2003, 10:47 am

banjobacon1 wrote:Users like it, and becasue of that, webmasters are using it. It is something that cannot be ignored.

I wish I could find some statistics that actually indicate whether or not users like the various IE-only features. The fact that most users access web sites using IE doesn't necessarily mean they like, or care one way or the other, about those features. I'm seriously interested in any such studies. I try to avoid non-standard features on the sites I deal with, but would consider catering to the user market place if there is a scientific study indicating just what non-standard features surfers consider important enough that they would avoid a site that doesn't use them..

Post by **tve** » April 7th, 2003, 10:53 am

STFF :), colored scrollbars were just discussed here a few days ago:
http://www.mozillazine.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8112

and ALT is meant as ALTernative text for browsers that arent capable of displaying images.. for tooltips, use TITLE.. if some wannabe webmasters arent able to understand the difference between ALT and TITLE, it's not Phoenix's fault..

If 90% (or whatever extremely high percentage it is) of internet users use IE, and they like a feature that is supported by IE, then that feature is pretty much a standard, regardless of what W3C says.

the W3 makes standards, not Microsoft...

Chris Cook · Post by **Chris Cook** » April 7th, 2003, 11:02 am

Microsoft did not end up with a dominant market share by copying all of the features of Netscape Navigator. While there are very obvious primary reasons why they now have the dominant browser, it should not be ignored that they tried to innovate by introducing their own proprietary features (much like Netscape) and shunned Netscapes proprietary features. Many used to complain that Microsoft didn't implement the Netscape features...but no longer.

Mozilla, and indeed every browser maker, will not beat Microsoft at their own game and certainly not because they've implemented inconsequential and annoying features like stylable scrollbars.

Only by making a better browser, not by matching IE bug for bug and feature for feature, will Mozilla succeed in making Phoenix more attractive that IE.

Post by **bdeonline** » April 7th, 2003, 11:53 am

But the same problem is with the W3C is the same problem with the U.N. no one is in full control, you cannot fully inforce browser makers on what it can and cannot add as of yet or tell people how to code properly and not properly. But it is slowly getting better with xml, xhtml where the page simply will not display if coded improperly.

As for the colored scrollbars I too would like to see this. It would be cool to have the scrollbar that goes with your theme semi transparent and see the color of the web site scrollbar come half way through. It would make a nice extention as I have stated about 5 times in the forums. I even have a bug <a href="http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=178651">178651</a> I posted for Phoenix but less than 2 hours it came back as the Mozilla Classic WONTFIX. Just the thought of having some feature that is different than the ordarary would be nice. Even rival open source browser <a href="http://www.konqueror.org">Konqueror</a> has colored scrollbars built in the khtml. Build a web browser for users and web developers.

tolremeno · Post by **tolremeno** » April 7th, 2003, 12:00 pm

i'm having trouble picturing why scrollbar coloring is so very cool and appealing. i didn't get it in the previous discussion, and i still don't. can someone give an example of a website that is so immensly better because of scrollbar coloring?

seb · Post by **seb** » April 7th, 2003, 12:02 pm

The problem, as it has been explained maaaany times, is that scrollbars don't belong to a site, but to the browser. And there is no reason why a webmaster should be able to modify the colors, the look'n'feel of the browser. If he can modify the scrollbars, why not the rest of the browser?

(besides, I personally hate colored scrollbars, because they just tend to confuse the user, and in this particular case, me)

banjobacon! · Post by **banjobacon!** » April 7th, 2003, 12:44 pm

the W3 makes standards, not Microsoft...

My point is that users should be the ones thast define standards.

A standard is... "something, such as a practice or a product, that is widely recognized or employed, especially because of its excellence."

Although we can debate on whether or not colored scrollbars are practical or excellent, it is a feature that is widely recognized and employed.

A scrollbar is practically part of a website. it is only useful when a page exceeds the length or width of the browser window.

If he can modify the scrollbars, why not the rest of the browser?

We allow sites to launch new windows that may or many not contain tool bars, menu bars, scrollbars, status bars or the ability to resize. do we mind? Sometimes, but sometimes it just happens to fit with the site.

to me, the scroll bar is part of a web site, and I would like it to fit the theme of the web site. This is especially the case in iframes, where a scroll bar can be an eyesore if it does not fit in with the site's theme. It is a scrollbar that is completely surronded by the rest of the site. Nobody can deny that it is part of the site.

There should at least be an extension or something. For all of you that think it is annoying, you can switch it off or never install it.

As for IE not copying Netscape:
IE had the advantage of being bundled with an OS used by most people. It was convienient for them to use it. Also, Microsoft is a known name. Mozilla or Phoenix are not big names among most people, and i don't think Windows is going to be distributed with Phoenix on it.

OkkE · Post by **OkkE** » April 7th, 2003, 1:41 pm

I don't want to see it as a standard! I think Phoenix should only omplement te 3W standards. Maybe there could be an extention you could download if you want colored scrollbars, or maybe it could be an option to switch on or off. But it should _not_ be default in my opinion.

If you desperately want your scrollbars to fit the theme of your site; use custom DHTML scrollbars or use Flash.

Thumper · Post by **Thumper** » April 7th, 2003, 1:42 pm

Coloured scrollbars and anyone who implements them should be eradicated. I have yet to see a single site on the entire Internet which does not pair coloured scrollbars with 6-pixel-high silkscreen text, dark-purple-on-black colour schemes and the occasional bit of IE-only dhtml.

That seems like a bit of a strong way of putting it, but think of this: Absolutely no other document attempts to co-opt my scrollbars when I open it, and any other application. Neither should web pages. Sites using frames badly is not a good excuse to infect my scrollbar.

And furthermore, could someone please sticky a "Phoenix does not have coloured scrollbars, ALT tooltips or <embed>ded sound because..." topic?

- Chris

seb · Post by **seb** » April 7th, 2003, 1:46 pm

thumperward wrote:And furthermore, could someone please sticky a "Phoenix does not have coloured scrollbars, ALT tooltips or <embed>ded sound because..." topic?

Please no.
It would be the best way to feed the troll.

Very few people ask about alt text tooltips or coloured scrollbars support, in comparison with the number of accounts on MZ.org.

Post by **djst** » April 7th, 2003, 1:47 pm

thumperward wrote:And furthermore, could someone please sticky a "Phoenix does not have coloured scrollbars, ALT tooltips or <embed>ded sound because..." topic?

The alt tooltip "issue" is covered in the FAQ. Maybe I should add an item for the colored scrollbars.

656 · Post by **656** » April 7th, 2003, 1:52 pm

What about this one?

link rel="SHORTCUT ICON"

IE does not support this anymore, but Mozilla does.

I would have to say that the scrollbars should be left standard, as I see no need to allow those changes.

Jobarr · Post by **Jobarr** » April 7th, 2003, 2:30 pm

I think that the standard should allow for colors on IFRAME scrollbars....but NEVER the main scrollbar.

Post by **bdeonline** » April 7th, 2003, 2:32 pm

It doesn't look like this descussion will ever be resolved so new question.

Can someone create an extention to Colored Scrollbars "IE Feature" just like autoscroll, smooth scrolling, alt tag ect. to Phoenix?

colored scrollbars and stuff

colored scrollbars and stuff

Re: colored scrollbars and stuff

Lead instead of follow