New names (please discuss the names in this thread ONLY)

[asa]

Firebird is a fork from Interbase DB. Is an OpenSource Project too. Why use the same name?. Because is not a browser?, then try to put this browser Windoxx Browser or Solarix Browser without hiring a team of lawers.

And what about the Firebird BBS open source project that pre-dates the Firebird DB project?

--Asa

Then a Double Fault!.

No. I'm not claiming that two wrongs make a right. I'm saying that there was no apparent problem (no fault at all) when there were many different apps all using the name Firebird and I'm questioning why it turned into a serious problem when many+1 apps started using the name. The Firebird database folks didn't seem to have any problem existing in a name space that was in heavy use by software that happened both before and after them.

Who would have guessed that they were OK using a name that had already been used by many other projects and products, that was even shared by another sourceforge project and that is a commonplace English word but add Mozilla Firebird to the mix and everything is total chaos, confusion and their project is doomed.

--Asa

[asa]

How come the dispute with Phoenix Technologies never got so heated? These things can be done in a better way, people.

That one's pretty easy. Phoenix Technologies sent several polight emails to the appropriate Mozilla people. A discussion took place. They pointed out their concerns, we discussed alternatives and a solution was agreed upon (Mozilla not using the name). They didn't post my email address (and those of others) on their front page, mailbombing me with ad-hominem attacks and insults.

--Asa

[../frank]

I'm amused and curious about the name of the organization which is promoting the Firebird database project

IBPhoenix is a web site and an organization that provides information and services to InterBase® and Firebird developers

They must know something about trademarks since they respect the fact that InterBase is a registered trademark of Borland, which thankfully has regained its original name from Inprise.

[Imposter [tve ™]]

asa wrote:

What about Gibson (guitar makers) and Pontiac (auto maker)?
The Mozilla group is free to make the Firebird toaster, Firebird pogo stick or whatever else they want. But an open-source Firebird program that will referred to as "Firebird" by many users and have to be supported by techies like me when we already are using another open-source program called "Firebird" is a problem. The fact that one will be used to connect and view data from the other is a problem as well. You list a bunch of other products named Firebird. How many of them can connect and interoperate with a database called Firebird. Just one that I could see. The Firebird browser.

Firebird is a common English word...already in use by an existing and well-established open-source project.

Who would have guessed that it was OK for a database server to use the name of an existing open source BBS server but it wouldn't be OK for a web browser to use (partially) the same name.
The subject of Firebird BBS was already discussed on page 18 & 19.

I'm saying that there was no apparent problem (no fault at all) when there were many different apps all using the name Firebird and I'm questioning why it turned into a serious problem when many+1 apps started using the name.
I can only find one app called Firebird on my Linux and Windows box. It's a database. Many different apps named Firebird? In common use on machines loaded with open-source software? The facts don't back that up.

Who would have guessed that they were OK using a name that had already been used by many other projects and products, that was even shared by another sourceforge project and that is a commonplace English word but add Mozilla Firebird to the mix and everything is total chaos, confusion and their project is doomed.
Another SourceForge project with activity and files? That doesn't have a direct relation to the Firebird database product? Please provide a link to this project. Their project is doomed? I never heard anyone anywhere say that. Nice hyperbole.

Phoenix Technologies sent several polight emails to the appropriate Mozilla people. A discussion took place. They pointed out their concerns, we discussed alternatives and a solution was agreed upon (Mozilla not using the name).
So in other words Phoenix Technologies offered you a level of courtesy and respect that you were unwilling to give to the Firebird project. Any polite emails sent to them from you? Or did you just drop a bomb on their head?

[asa]

In this particular case, the people at Mozilla knew that the developers at Firebird project would not like another open-source project using their name so they didn't notify them or ask for their input before making the name change.

Nice try attributing motives that you couldn't possibly know. You couldn't be more wrong. Starting off with wild speculation isn't the best way to bring others around to your position.

There were *many* software projects using the name "firebird". They were all co-existing peacefully and I doubt that any of them had a care in the world about any of the others. It's a common English word and no one using it could have possibly thought they were the only "firebird". That many products and organizations were completely comfortable sharing the name is evidence contrary to your assertion of motive.

How could the Mozilla people (me?) know that the database developers would not like another open-source project using the name, given that there existed an open source BBS server already using that name even before the database folks? How could we know they wouldn't like it when they were peacefully co-existing with the open source Fenix Firebird IDE at sourceforge, the educational software, financial software, engineering software, video games, and ntp software, and others also out there?

Why did they use Firebird for their database even though it was already used by other software projects and why didn't they scream bloody murder when other projects came along and used the name after them? Because it wasn't a problem is the obvious answer. Becuase many different kinds of software partially sharing a name wasn't causing mass confusion or choas among users of that software. How were we to know that many using the name was perfectly fine but many+1 was completely unacceptable?

And they weren't under any legal requirement to do so. The word "community" is often used in conjunction with the words "open source" but this does not mean any group has to actually show any other group courtesy or respect. Which is pretty accurate description of the route the Mozilla crowd decided to take.

I was genuinely surprised when the flames started coming from the database people. We didn't contact any of the *many* other products/projects using the name "firebird" because we couldn't have anticipated that it was fine to have N uses of Firebird but N+1 was the end of the world.

And I certainly don't cede any moral high ground to a project that mailbombs me and other hard-working open source proponents over something like this. I don't see any courtesy or respect in those actions.

I've seen quite a few posts about differentiating between browsers and databases and why the Firebird supporters are so upset. If you go out to Google and type in +Firebird +"open source" you'll see why. Of the 14,900 hits, every one that I clicked on was for the Firebird database. In the realm of open source Firebird = database.

And was that always so? Can you say that the other open source project (Firebird BBS) that was using the name first didn't have the higher google page rank before the database project adopted the name? And who cares? Real users looking for a database aren't going to be able to find it by typing "firebird database"? I don't buy that. If this this really boils down to google page rank that makes the mailbombing and personal attacks even more infantile.

And this is not by accident. I know from asking for help on the Firebird newsgroups that they work very hard to make their database a top-notch product. To dismiss their irritation at another open-source project using the name Firebird simply shows how indifferent the Mozilla group is to the efforts of this other group.

I don't know what you're saying here. What does their hardwork have to do with the current situation? Were the other Firebird software developers (the ones working on the BBS server or the Maths educational software or the NTP client or the Financial Mortgage Application software, or the fantasy adventure video game, etc.) not hard working?

Members of both groups can argue about minutia all they want, but the bottom line is the way this process was handled by the Mozilla group was disingenuous and sets a bad example of how groups within the open-source movement should interoperate.

Disingenuous? This is more of that wild speculation that seems to get you into trouble. There was nothing underhanded or devious about our name change. We had a name that we liked. We had to change it. We found another name we liked. We checked to see if any other web browsers were using it and we made the change.

Disingenuous? Nonsense.

--Asa

[asa]

And what about the Firebird BBS open source project that pre-dates the Firebird DB project?

Has anyone really took the time to respond to this? I mean if this is the case, aren't both the Database project and the Mozilla team acting in bad faith towards the BBS? Most of the arguements I've read lambasting the Mozilla project also apply to the database as far as I can see, yet nobody says anything about that... odd.

It doesn't require a response. There was no bad faith from them of from us. There are *lots* of software projects and organizations using the name Firebird. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. The Firebird database people weren't doing anything wrong when they picked that name. A database, afterall, isn't a BBS server. Neither is it a video game or a piece of educational software or a mortgage application program. It isn't a networking service provider or a web hosting company or a reprogrammable circuitboard. A database isn't a computer joystick or a CPU cooling fan.

And neither is a web browser any of those things.

--Asa

[asa]

After months of discussion and further months of legal investigation, we're finally comfortable moving forward with new names. The new name for the Phoenix browser is "Firebird". The documentation and product strings will be updated soon. In addition to securing the Firebird name, we've also got the OK, from those contributing legal resources, to use the name "Thunderbird" for an email client. Hopefully this will be the end of naming legal issues for a while.

--Asa

IMHO the choice is almost too logical, workable, inevitable-in-retrospect to be true, for any number of reasons.... so obviously that means I approve.

All I could add is I'm curious what legalities had to be cleared. It if's at all feasible, do tell. You didn't really have to wrangle with GM, did you? I thought there was some legal principal that trademarks couldn't overlap into widely divergent (non-competitive) fields...

As you may already know, the name Phoenix had to be changed because another web browser maker was already using the name Phoenix. We didn't want to make that same mistake again so we asked a legal expert to do the necessary searches to make sure that there weren't other web browsers or web browser makers using the name Firebird.

--Asa

[asa]

Another SourceForge project with activity and files? That doesn't have a direct relation to the Firebird database product? Please provide a link to this project. Their project is doomed? I never heard anyone anywhere say that. Nice hyperbole.

http://viracocha.sourceforge.net/fb.php

--Asa

[catharsis]

Thanks for responding, asa.

Now, surely you can understand that sharing namespace with the BBS or the IDE, and sharing with what is probably the highest-profile open source application around are going to be different matters? If you don't, please try! It isn't as unreasonable as you're painting it to be, and it really isn't as simple as many+1! That suggests Mozilla has a profile equal to that of the BSS or the IDE or whatever, which is ludicrous. The potential for Mozilla to totally obscure the other software projects of the same name is huge.

Yes, it quite probably legally fine (although unless this ever goes before a court that is neither here nor there, regardless of anyones opinion, even the netscape lawyers), and yes, peaceful co-existance is not out of the question - but you must understand Mozilla is a giant, and so it must take care where it steps if it doesn't want to upset people. Things that apply to the Firebird DB or the Firebird IDE or the Firebird BBS don't necessarily work the same for Mozilla. If you don't think that's true or fair, or feel that you shouldn't have to take care, well, be prepared for these sorts of reactions. I think initially we Firebird supporters felt a little like a cat cornered by a big dog. The reaction reflected that pretty well.

How where you to know that such drama would ensue? A little empathy wouldn't have gone astray. "If i was those guys, how would i feel about this?" Isn't this the "business is business" sort of thing open source was supposed to get away from? Is it stupid of me to expect an organisation like Mozilla.org to consider the feelings of others?

Btw, the first post in this thread does not announce "Mozilla Firebird." It says

The new name for the Phoenix browser is "Firebird"

Just a point. If it'll become Mozilla Firebird later, like after 1.5, still isn't clear. i don't think it matters to the debate much either, because if we're all calling it firebird now (witness: Firebird Help, not Mozilla Firebird Help) that's probably what it's going to be called more often than not in the future.

Also, instead of taking this personally, writing the Firebird supporters off as abnormalities, etc, instead perhaps try to learn something from what's happened and use it as a guide in the future.

[Nitin]

Any polite emails sent to them from you? Or did you just drop a bomb on their head?

This is a disgusting shameless post... these trolls think they are creating confusion to make a point here... first it was "firebird has been available for mac since 2002".... now usurping the name, location and avatar of an active forum contributor. Sheesh.

I'm tired reading through their fallacious arguments... and their stupidity... will probably not check these forums for a week or so.... hopefully all this nonsense would have died down... there would be stable firebird windows builds... (and better still 0.6

[daihard]

[quote="tve ™"][/quote]
Just the tone and lack of intellect in your whole mail told me right away that you aren't the "tve" that I know.

[seb]

I wonder if such dorks really think they'll help FirebirdSQL. "tve ™" can't be more than 8 years old.

[JenHi]

Forgive me please to give my personal unwaited replies to cahtarsis's post on wich I agree mostly - except that Asa have been personally attacked. Violently, in an electronic way.
And the following points

Btw, the first post in this thread does not announce "Mozilla Firebird." It says

The new name for the Phoenix browser is "Firebird"

And why was it so - because Phoenix was mozilla phoenix and not another project ;
So it would not have much sense to say 'mozilla phoenix' is 'mozilla firebird' -
it is the forum of mozilla firebird/phoenix not a newspaper. The context give the precision by itself. Empathy is a good thing as long as you do not forget who you are and what is your position.

use it as a guide in the future.

That is wise to say so, giants need education too - I am not sure ASA is the one that needed it.

[odonohue]

Firebird is a fork from Interbase DB. Is an OpenSource Project too. Why use the same name?.

I'm saying that there was no apparent problem (no fault at all) when there were many different apps all using the name Firebird and I'm questioning why it turned into a serious problem when many+1 apps started using the name.

Asa, many +1 is entirely wrong, two at best is the answer.

In the region of opensource, software development, Firebird and FirebirdSQL have hard earned name recognition. We have existed with Firebird BBS for years without any complaint from them. But many+1 is the spin you want on it to support your story.

Now, if you got mozilla at a motor show, or (as between Firebird BBS and us) we both used different native languages, then I could how we would not overlap, but essentially yes, your a huge player, and your entry into the "firebird" namespace will cause us and our users much trouble.


Mark

[Hooded One]

Now, surely you can understand that sharing namespace with the BBS or the IDE, and sharing with what is probably the highest-profile open source application around are going to be different matters? If you don't, please try! It isn't as unreasonable as you're painting it to be, and it really isn't as simple as many+1! That suggests Mozilla has a profile equal to that of the BSS or the IDE or whatever, which is ludicrous. The potential for Mozilla to totally obscure the other software projects of the same name is huge.

Yes, it quite probably legally fine (although unless this ever goes before a court that is neither here nor there, regardless of anyones opinion, even the netscape lawyers), and yes, peaceful co-existance is not out of the question - but you must understand Mozilla is a giant, and so it must take care where it steps if it doesn't want to upset people. Things that apply to the Firebird DB or the Firebird IDE or the Firebird BBS don't necessarily work the same for Mozilla. If you don't think that's true or fair, or feel that you shouldn't have to take care, well, be prepared for these sorts of reactions. I think initially we Firebird supporters felt a little like a cat cornered by a big dog. The reaction reflected that pretty well.

So... you're saying that all the other projects have more of a claim to the name because they're not as popular as Mozilla?

Could you make any more of a nonsensical point?