<chrisn> |
well, why don't we start.
pinkerton, if you want to introduce yourself, we'll get introductions
from everyone else and then get on to the questions |
<pinkerton> |
ok, i'm Mike Pinkerton, XPToolkit engineer
and Mac weenie. i've been at nscp for two years now working on both
4.x and 5.0 |
<shaver> |
I'm Mike Shaver, and
I watch other people work on Mozilla |
<Pavlov> |
we know :) |
<chrisn> |
I'm Chris Nelson, and
I maintain mozillaZine |
|
anyone else? feel free... |
<kerz> |
I'm Jason Kersey, and I also work on mozillaZine |
<Ben_Goodger> |
I'm Ben Goodger, and
I shoot the breeze and look pretty. |
<myk> |
Myk Melez, web app designer and i watch
people who watch people who work on mozilla |
<Improv> |
I'm Pat Gunn, FAQ maintainer
and general irritant |
<MattyT> |
I'm Matthew Tuck, and I really hate introductions |
<Pavlov> |
i'm Stuart Parmenter
and I keep pinkerton in line |
<sabi> |
i'm Nicholas Riley, and I read mozilla
newsgroups for amusement... |
<FrodoB> |
Mark Anderson: College
student, song writer, Tolkien freak, and Mozilla well-wisher extraordinaire,
who likes all three major platforms Mozilla is made for. ;) |
<Pavlov> |
windows95, 98 and nt? |
<DaaWk> |
Dave Avery Distributed.net
bugzill man and mozilla watcher |
<sabi> |
that'd be true of 4.x |
<WindWalkr> |
chris bergmann: mac
developer |
<Improv> |
Pavlov: BeOS, Solaris, and Linux? |
<dmose> |
Dan Mosedale: various
mozilla.org miscellany |
<FrodoB> |
No. Linux, MacOS 8.5/9, and MacOS X. ;) |
<Pavlov> |
macos? |
|
we don't look like my
other mac apps |
* pinkerton |
thwacks pav again. don't make me hit you
again pretzel boy |
<Improv> |
This feels a lot like
#mozilla traffic in general |
<pinkerton> |
chrisn: make me an op so i can boot pav
;) |
* Pavlov |
shuts up and works |
<Ben_Goodger> |
yeah dammit. where's my help item in the
context men |
<pinkerton> |
*sigh* |
* sabi |
laughs. |
<chrisn> |
ok. first thing. if
a few of you could log this chat in case I get dropped... |
|
that said, let's get
started. if you see a question asked, wait for it to be answered
before asking yours... |
|
first question? |
<pinkerton> |
.....silence..... |
<chrisn> |
and you thought this
would be difficult.... |
|
everyone here is here
to watch you get flamed! |
<pinkerton> |
yeah, hey, i can just sit and code the
whole time then |
|
i just got drag and drop in the personal
toolbar working again |
<Improv> |
This chat seems a bit
silly and pointless now :) |
<FrodoB> |
Is the Mac version basically on par with
the Windows and Linux versions? I know that it was a bit behind
back earlier this year, but is it pretty even now? |
<pinkerton> |
like 5 minutes ago ;) |
<FrodoB> |
<<Just trying to do... SOMETHING.
;)>> |
<pinkerton> |
frodob: yes, it's pretty
much on par. in terms of features there isn't much chance for things
to be different. |
<sabi> |
translucent dragging? :) |
<pinkerton> |
frodo: but there are
stil lthings we're working on like startup time, etc |
|
sabi: yeah, we probably
won't see that in 5.0 ;) |
<Ben_Goodger> |
okay, here's a boring one: how do you
think mac users will perceive Mozilla given its appearance? what
does it need to do to be accepted? |
<pinkerton> |
sabi: but just maybe.
if smfr or i get some free time ;) |
<Improv> |
pinkerton: I imagine XPFE will help keep
MacOS on-par in graphics with other platforms |
<pinkerton> |
ben: i anticipate the
mac community to really dislike mozilla. |
|
ben: it's a frankenstein
of UI meshed from all 3 platforms. |
<Ben_Goodger> |
pink: is there anything that can be done
to soften the blow? |
<DaaWk> |
and does anyone know
of a "Mac"ish chrrome being worked on? |
<pinkerton> |
daa: we're trying to get a native system
colors version in the works, but i don't think we've started it
yet. |
<sabi> |
is there anything we
(non-developers or developers only marginally familiar with mozilla)
can do to try to make the release a bit more palatable for people
who care about the look/function of it? |
<pinkerton> |
i think that the main thing won't be the
look, per se, but really the inter-operation with things like internet
config and the like. |
<Improv> |
sabi: Will something
like NeXT's interface builder be developed to help people write
XUL? |
<pinkerton> |
or lack of good appleevent support |
<sabi> |
I don't work for Netscape,
why are you asking me? :) |
<pinkerton> |
improv: the xptoolkit team wants to start
on that as soon as we ship 5.0 |
<shaver> |
who cares if you work
for Netscape? |
<pinkerton> |
bingo |
<shaver> |
pinkerton: internet
config will work |
<sabi> |
well, true. |
<DaaWk> |
I was thinking more
( from read ing the mozilla newsgroups) of a "Mac"ish look and feel
( dialogs, widgets, etc) |
<pinkerton> |
as to what people can do to soften the
blow, i think we really need to wait to get people to see it before
we guess at what they will and won't ccomplain about |
|
i guarantee that we'll be wrong ;) |
<shaver> |
pinkerton: we built
the url dispatching with that in mind |
<pinkerton> |
we're hoping, actually, that apple steps
up to the plate and does something like that. |
<sabi> |
it seemed the major
complaint about 4.x and internet config was the user profile thing,
but now internet config has multiple profiles it might be a little
easier. |
|
*shrug* |
* FrodoB |
now wishes he knew C++. He'd gladly help
with Internet Config stuff if he had any idea where to start. But
alas, Java is all he knows. :( |
<pinkerton> |
sabi: yeah, we're working
with apple on that. |
|
sabi: they're putting
in some things we need, but it's still a slow process. |
<ncode_> |
will mozilla have resumable d/l? |
<myk> |
pink: are these things
impossible to add (appleevent support) or is it just that they won't
be there by the first release? |
<shaver> |
ncode: resumable like in 4.x? |
<sabi> |
cool. |
<pinkerton> |
ncode: good question. any other mozilla-ites
know the answer? |
|
myk: they won't be there by first release.
we just don't have the time or the resources to do it. |
<Ben_Goodger> |
doesnt silentdownload
do something like that, or am I way off base? |
<shaver> |
the infrastructure for byte-range HTTP
and reget in FTP is in place |
<pinkerton> |
myk: it's not rocket
science, just takes warm bodies. |
<shaver> |
nobody has exposed any UI for it yet |
<pinkerton> |
but on the native look/etc
front, we realized early on that we couldn't really use apple's
widgets because they didn't do a lot of things that we needed, like
respect CSS2 properties. |
<ncode_> |
will it have a d/l manager? |
<thelem> |
NS4 doesn't have resumable
download, only the SmartDownload plugin which doesn't work across
reboots |
<WindWalkr> |
still |
<pinkerton> |
ncode: like in ie for
mac? probably not. |
<shaver> |
NS4 has resumable download for FTP |
|
if the file is still in your cache |
<pinkerton> |
ncode: but it shouldn't
be hard for someone to do. |
<chrisn> |
pinkerton: could you explain the CSS2
properties compatibility in a bit more detail? What were Mac's native
widgets missing? |
<enyad> |
any good reason the
Mac milestone builds are so much larger than Windows and Linux? |
<Ben_Goodger> |
shaver: does 4.x remove it from the cache?
if it placed it in another temp folder, could it not remain there? |
<shaver> |
I don't understand the
question |
<Improv> |
pinkerton: Will Mozilla for OSX be based
more on the MacOS codebase or the Unix codebase? |
<shaver> |
anyway, it's not Mac-related |
<pinkerton> |
enyad: they are getting smaller and we
are working really hard to pull out the low hanging fruit. also
remember PPC code is bigger than x86 code |
<shaver> |
so let's do it in #mozilla,
not here |
<ncode_> |
will the mercutio appearance be correct? |
<pinkerton> |
ncode: we don't use
mercutio anymore |
|
improv: mozilla with
the mac impl of widget and gfx |
<ncode_> |
4.7 still had the plain menus, not chrome |
<pinkerton> |
improv: it will use
Carbon |
|
ncode: right |
<chrisn> |
pinkerton: could you explain the CSS2
properties compatibility in a bit more detail? What were Mac's native
widgets missing? |
<pinkerton> |
ncode: the 4.x releases
come from sustaining engineering, not the mainline developers and
so don't have all the things that we really want in them. |
|
chrisn: ok ;) |
<ncode_> |
will a new version of navigator be released? |
<WindWalkr> |
is the macos version
using carbon or appearance or what? |
<ncode_> |
408 is the current navigator version |
<pinkerton> |
we needed to be able
to do things like change borders, widths, colors, etc of the widgets
to fit with the chrome that the user chose or to go in the webpages.
apple's widgets only do gray. |
<chrisn> |
please try to wait until a question is
answered before asking yours... thanks! |
<pinkerton> |
we've been talking with
apple about api's for appearance manager to do what we want but
it's not a high priority for them. so we had to roll our own. |
|
thank god themes are
dead ;) |
<sabi> |
heh, if they won't even give their OWN
java team colored buttons, think of what they would (or wouldn't)
do for mozilla... |
<pinkerton> |
but there is still the
opportunity to plug in native widget implementations, with the understanding
that they will have severe limitations in terms of look |
|
ncode: there will not
be a standalone navigator in 4.x. not sure about 5.0, but our new
architecture makes it easy to remove what you don't want. |
|
windalkr: i don't understand
you question. |
<sabi> |
is there any sane way you can get rid
of the window deactivation with popups, similar to the way (I know,
eww.) Microsoft does it? |
<pinkerton> |
sabi: it's been fixed
;) |
<sabi> |
Oh cool. |
|
Need to get a later build.. |
<pinkerton> |
sabi: saari did it a
week or two ago |
<Improv> |
pinkerton: Will more of the things that
are stealth preferences in Unix make it into preferences proper
so MacOS Mozillans can use them? |
<pinkerton> |
improv: such as? |
<Pavlov> |
ssh |
<pinkerton> |
haha, i could tell you
but i'd have to kill you ;) |
|
did i miss anyone's
questions yet? |
<Improv> |
pinkerton: I know that more of the interface
concerns are probably gone thanks to XUL, but 4.x's ability to remove
the new stupid shopping button, et al.. |
<enyad> |
Carbon. Hmmm. So will
it have the ability to vend any Services (a la Cocoa apps)? |
<pinkerton> |
i've been typing as fast as i can ;) |
<ncode_> |
tell me some mozilla
secret commands |
|
please |
<Improv> |
pinkerton: I'm sure there were some other
stealth preferences that MacOS people missed out on (esp those set
by X Resources) |
<pinkerton> |
improv: you'll be able
to remove anything you want just by editing the xul file. |
|
improv: or add anything
you want. that's the power of using xml for our ui |
|
enyad; probably not. |
<Ben_Goodger> |
pink: if you were to make an embeddable
form of the layout (like Adam Lock's ActiveX control, but on Mac),
could you use the layout generated widgets with the layout control,
but use native ones in the app you were building? |
<ncode_> |
if i look at the mozilla
source can i find the secret commands? |
<pinkerton> |
enyad: none of us are too familiar with
that stuff, mostly just enough about carbon to get it running ;) |
<Improv> |
pinkerton: There were
a few non-GUI things in there like confirm on exit, blink-disable
(which never worked), so on |
<pinkerton> |
ben: that was our original goal, but i
think that stuff might have bitrotted. if it is important, we can
work with whoever is doing the embedding to get it right. |
|
ncode: there probably aren't too many
there. we haven't added them back in yet ;) |
<ncode_> |
about:mozilla |
<pinkerton> |
next question? |
<Ben_Goodger> |
pink: I ask because
even if mac users do not accept the default mozilla appearance,
someone could always create their own FE using native code. |
<pinkerton> |
about: will be back...just not in yet
;) |
<Ben_Goodger> |
using the newer page
in the classic tree? ;) |
<pinkerton> |
ben: yeah, they could totally do that |
<ncode_> |
will there be more abouts? |
<pinkerton> |
ncode: you'll just ahve to wait and see
;) |
|
next question anyone? |
<ncode_> |
will mozilla be out
before w2k |
<pinkerton> |
or things i didn't answer to your satisfaction? |
<MattyT> |
mozilla is already out
there |
<pinkerton> |
ncode: w2k ships when? feb? |
|
yeah, so in some sense we already did
ship ;) |
<ncode_> |
yeah |
<Improv> |
pinkerton: Probably later than that |
<FrodoB> |
Could the widgets in
any way be made to look more native than they are now? (e.g. On
Mac, they look like Mac widgets, but function like XP ones.) |
<ncode_> |
m10 is still alpha isnt it? |
<pinkerton> |
we're hoping for a beta
in that timeframe, but things are very up in the air. |
|
m10 is very very very
very alpha |
<shaver> |
why does it matter which side of the win2k
release date we're on? |
<pinkerton> |
frodo: yes, we need
to do some tweaking on the look/feel to make people happy. right
now we're more concerned that they work at all ;) we'll go back
and pollish as we get closer to ship. |
<ncode_> |
i liked the metoer shower throbber |
<Ben_Goodger> |
FrodoB: I think the
CSS standards etc seem to be tailored towards creating a Windows
appearance ;) |
<pinkerton> |
yes, css is very very windoze centric. |
|
there is even an MDI color in the CSS
spec |
<Ben_Goodger> |
pink: do you anticipate
more changes to moz-css to accomodate Mac? |
<chrisn> |
heh |
<ncode_> |
is there a way to change
the throbber? |
<pinkerton> |
they are straight maps to the win32 api
colors. blech. |
<sabi> |
MDI? Ouch. |
<Ben_Goodger> |
(being a fan of the Mac appearance myself) |
<sabi> |
Forget textures... |
<pinkerton> |
ncode; yes, you just swap in two new gifs
or change the xul to point to a new gif of your own. it's very easy
and requires no code. |
<sabi> |
(Although, I guess with
themes gone, we really -can- forget textures :) |
<thelem> |
ncode: I think you can just change the
image, if not edit the XUL. |
|
ncode: It can be done in NS4 too |
<ncode_> |
hmm |
<pinkerton> |
sabi: well there are always bg gifs for
things, which is why we couldn't use apple's buttons again...no
way to tile a gif over them to skin them! |
<Improv> |
pinkerton: How easy
is it going to be to install new XUL interface files in mozilla? |
<sabi> |
True, I guess you can set a bg gif for
table or something with CSS |
<pinkerton> |
improv: pretty easy,
you should just be able to download things and put them in the right
places. |
<Improv> |
pinkerton: Restarting netscape or switching
on-the-fly? |
<Pavlov> |
on the fly |
<chrisn> |
pinkerton: how do _you_ feel about the
XPFE interface on Mac Mozilla? Are you upset by anything? pleased
with anything? |
<Improv> |
Niiice |
<pinkerton> |
improv: restarting for the first revision
probably. |
|
improv: and xul/chrome will have to be
local. in future versions we want to be able to have xul live on
the net, but we have to solve security issues with that first. |
<Pavlov> |
it should be noted that
CSS3 is better about not having all windows specific colors |
<ncode_> |
will mozilla be able to handle gif background
images better? |
<pinkerton> |
chrisn: i'm pleased
that it allows us to have a mac version at all. if we didn't go
down this route, we wouldn't have the resources to ship a mac product
at all. |
<Pavlov> |
(but we don't support those) |
<shaver> |
ncode_: do we handle
them in the wrong way now? |
<ncode_> |
yes |
|
they freeze everything until it loads |
<shaver> |
you should file a bug |
<Ben_Goodger> |
pinkerton: really, what was the state
of the Mac Mozilla at the time the axe fell on Classic? |
<pinkerton> |
chrisn: though i'm a
little disheartened that it won't look like a mac app per se and
we'll fall back into the same boat as ms did with office 4.2...for
which they got flamed hard. |
<Improv> |
ncode: Is that with the classic rendering
engine or the new one? |
<ncode_> |
4.7 |
<shaver> |
ncode_: that's not mozilla |
<pinkerton> |
ben: we were close to
beta on 5.0 classic. it was pretty slick. |
<shaver> |
ncode_: we don't care about 4.7 |
|
(basically) |
<Ben_Goodger> |
pink: but you say you
didn't have the resources? |
<Improv> |
pinkerton: Microsoft applications don't
look much like Mac apps either though :) |
<shaver> |
ncode_: does Mozilla
handle them in the wrong way now? |
<ncode_> |
why am i useing it then? |
<pinkerton> |
ben: right. |
<Ben_Goodger> |
(o_O) |
<ncode_> |
i should be using mozilla? |
<pinkerton> |
improv: office98 isn't too bad. neither
is ie. |
<shaver> |
ncode_: this talk is
about Mozilla |
<pinkerton> |
ncode: mozilla isn't ready yet ;) |
<kerz_> |
ncode_: this chat is
about mozilla, not 4.x, they are not the same thing |
<Improv> |
ncode: He means 'we' as the Mozilla folk,
not Netscape in general |
<sabi> |
yeah, all that really
happened with office 98 was that microsoft replaced the windows
3.1 style drawing things with apple appearance-looking ones |
|
anyway. very much off
topic.. |
<pinkerton> |
but it got great press that they did that! |
<ncode_> |
mozilla m10 isnt stable
yet to use |
<kerz> |
pinkerton: how much can be done about
the start up time on mac? |
<pinkerton> |
kerz: simon fraser is
working his ass off trying to get it down |
<ncode_> |
it doesnt let me set proxies |
<pinkerton> |
kerz: it is so much
better than it used to be. |
<shaver> |
ncode_: did you read the release notes? |
|
I use proxies with M10 |
<Improv> |
ncode: There's documentation
on setting up proxies on www.mozilla.org, I'm sure |
<sabi> |
mozilla used to take like 2 minutes to
start up on my mac. is MUCH better now |
<pinkerton> |
kerz: but it is high
priority that startup time be as fast or faster than 4.7, which
is really fast for me. |
<kerz> |
pinkerton: how is it in comparison to
the other platforms? |
<pinkerton> |
next question? did i
get everyone? |
|
kerz: win32 is pretty
fast, i think mac is a little better than linux. |
<MattyT> |
pink: how has your new found fame and
fortune affected you? |
<enyad> |
will Moz support multiple
users automatically with each distinct login? (E.g. User A gets
a User A profile, User B gets User B profile, etc. Like IE but unlike
Navigator on WinNT, for instance.) I guess the question applies
to both the OS 9 and OS X multiple-user implementations... |
<pinkerton> |
hard for me to judge, my mac is a 450
and my pc/linux boxes are 200's ;) |
|
matty: i now have to sleep with a gun
on my pillow ;) |
<shaver> |
enyad: profiles are
XP, yes |
<ncode_> |
is mozilla-mac-M10.sea.hqx the right file
to get? |
<pinkerton> |
enyad: god. um....we
haven't even looked at the multiuser stuff in os9 |
<Improv> |
pinkerton: Do you think Carbon is the
best way to do Mozilla on MacOSX in the future? |
<shaver> |
.bin is smaller, I suspect |
<pinkerton> |
enyad: it will probably work just like
on unix, wehre every "login" has its set of profiles to pick from |
<ncode_> |
there is no big |
<FrodoB> |
shaver: I think he meant associating
one profile with one user's login, and another with another's login,
and so on. |
<ncode_> |
.gin |
<sabi> |
enyad - since the pref folder gets mapped
per login |
<ncode_> |
.bin |
<pinkerton> |
improv: yeah, since rewriting the whole
thing in java or obj-c is well...lame in MHO. |
<sabi> |
ncode - one thing you
can do is if you've got a unix box with a fast connection, grab
it there and then use mcvert or hexbin |
<ncode_> |
how cool is M10? |
<pinkerton> |
frodo: right. i don't
think we're doing that. |
<sabi> |
that's what i do when i'm on a slow connection
and can only get a huge .hqx file. saves download time significantly |
<Improv> |
pinkerton: I mean, moving
the backend to Unix but the frontend to Carbon might be an option |
<pinkerton> |
ncode: download it and find out ;) m11
will be better for sure though. |
<ncode_> |
25 minutes till i get
it |
<pinkerton> |
improv: no. there is no more backend/frontend
like in moz classic. |
|
improv; it's all backend now with a small
bit of os glue. |
|
improv: there is no way we would write
gtk on osX ;) |
<ncode_> |
does m10 render better? |
<pinkerton> |
better than? |
|
next question? anyone? |
<shaver> |
is M10 sweeter than
a duck? |
<sabi> |
bahah |
<pinkerton> |
i like ducks. |
<shaver> |
what's the difference between an orange? |
<ncode_> |
does M10 support plugins
yet? |
<MattyT> |
if a man does something in a forest and
there's no woman around to see it, is he still wrong? |
<shaver> |
yes, given the right
kind of plugin |
<pinkerton> |
ncode; yes, it does |
|
ncode; i think we got it working with
realAudio even |
<FrodoB> |
pinkerton: Are there
plans to make platform-specific abstractions of the default skins?
The new skin is, well, way too unspartan for most people, who prefer
their nice little syscolor grey browser. :) |
<ncode_> |
will mozilla release its own browser instead
of it being turned into netscrape? |
<thelem> |
yes |
|
They will release both |
<pinkerton> |
frodo: you can always apply a system-color
skin (assuming someone writes one) |
<ncode_> |
cool! |
<pinkerton> |
ncode: i defer to shaver on that |
<kerz_> |
pinkerton: how much
work is going into netscape specific stuff as opposed to mozilla/open
stuff |
<ncode_> |
no AIM!!! |
<MattyT> |
ncode: assumedly we'll
just get stable milestones |
<pinkerton> |
frodo: the goal is to separate chrome
structure (xul/javascript) from presentation (css) |
<Ben_Goodger> |
Frodo: I'm working on
one based on the previous skin. I want a plain browser. |
<chrisn> |
pinkerton: do you think the cross-platform
nature of Mozilla has been very accomodating towards Mac issues?
or have you have to make more accomodations on your end? |
<pinkerton> |
kerz: some, but most
people work fully on mozilla. |
<FrodoB> |
I realize that, but I was referring more
to one that caters a bit more to platform-specific stuff (the various
button spacing conventions or whatnot), or is the whole thing agnostic
to such things? |
<ncode_> |
will mozilla have a
good bookmark editor that can sort? |
<Ben_Goodger> |
FrodoB: overlays control the button positioning
on different platforms. |
<pinkerton> |
chrisn: it has been,
but only because we have stubborn mac weenies on xpToolkit. left
to their own devices most netscape programmers would make a win32
centric app. |
<chrisn> |
ncode_: you might want to save these questions
for the developer chat with Mike Shaver. :-) |
<pinkerton> |
chrisn: the fact that
drag and drop won't suck on mac (as much) is because i screamed
and help my breath until people gave in for the mac. |
<chrisn> |
ncode_: this is dealing with Mac specific
issues. |
<ncode_> |
yes |
<sabi> |
woohoo. |
<enyad> |
to cut down on binary
size and [maybe???] improve speed, is there any way to use the common
image libraries that'll be in OS X rather than those release w/
Moz? I guess if the OS natively supports jpg, gif, png, tiff, etc.
via shared code, loading another implementation is a bit wasteful? |
<ncode_> |
im using a mac |
<pinkerton> |
frodo: let's let things
settle out and see where current skin development goes. things are
kind of up in the air right now. |
<FrodoB> |
I'll buy that. :) |
<sabi> |
enyad - there are problems
at least with png display in quicktime |
|
iCab tried using quicktime
for everything and had to go back because of bugs |
<pinkerton> |
ncode: i hope so, but it might take a
revision or two for us to get there. we're just concerned with getting
back to 4.x functionality....which is depressing bevcause we fixed
most of those lame problems in mozillaClassic. |
|
enyad: maybe, but we don't get those in
macOS 8, so..... it's hard for developers tyring to write on both
platforms. |
|
enyad: apple has been poor with exposing
such things to developers. |
<FrodoB> |
So, it basically is
the case that Moz 5.5 or 6.0 or whatever will be the one where most
users see big (non-widget-based) changes, because you'll be up to
where you were with MozClassic, more or less? |
<pinkerton> |
yeah, we thought about using quicktime
but there are just things it can't do. |
|
frodo: i hope it won't take that long,
but maybe. |
|
we really don't want to call this 5.0
because it has the connotation that it's superior to 4.x, but it's
just soooooo different. |
<MattyT> |
Mozilla 2001! |
<pinkerton> |
new engine, new ideas, new paradigm. fewer
features. |
|
next question? |
<kerz_> |
pinkerton: would you
rather have shipped classic as 5 and then moved to ngl? |
<ncode_> |
Mozilla D |
|
Mozilla D1 |
<pinkerton> |
kerz: yes, but oh well
;) |
<ncode_> |
Mozilla R1 |
|
M15 |
<pinkerton> |
kerz: i did so much
awesome stuff in mozClassic i was really sad to see all that work
go to waste. |
<FrodoB> |
How about Mozilla IDBBTC (pronounced id-bib-tick),
standing for Mozilla is Different But Better Than Communicator?
;) |
<pinkerton> |
haha |
|
next question? |
<sabi> |
haha |
<ncode_> |
will mozilla have cool
icons? |
<shaver> |
no |
<pinkerton> |
acutally what really
pisses me off is that we're making a lot of the same ui mistakes
in mozilla as we did (and realized were stupid and fixed) in mozClassic. |
<shaver> |
we're trying to find the ugliest possible
icons |
<pinkerton> |
it's like people have
forgotten the past |
<Ben_Goodger> |
pink: like? |
<kerz_> |
like what? |
<pinkerton> |
ben: like the sidebar. |
<sabi> |
heh, yeah, apprunner
doesn't exactly have an awe-inspiring icon |
<ncode_> |
will mozilla have keyboard shortcut to
enter preferences? |
<Ben_Goodger> |
pink: you don't like
the sidebar :) |
<thelem> |
ncode: Yes |
<pinkerton> |
ben: we discovered that
we couldn't make a good ui putting everything on the side so we
ditched it. now it's back. it's l8ike our UI team just forgot all
those user tests we did! |
<sabi> |
what kind of ui mistakes do you mean?
non-xp compatibility or just general user-unhelpfulness? |
<ncode_> |
like command-P |
<sabi> |
oh, yeah, sidebars suck. |
<pinkerton> |
ncode; you can always
add it yourself. just edit the xul |
<ncode_> |
but command-P is print |
<Ben_Goodger> |
I quite like the sidebar.
*sniff* then again, I'm a recovering IE5 user... |
<pinkerton> |
sabi: general stuff, the sidebar is a
good example. |
<sabi> |
I think it might be
that Microsoft is using sidebars in almost everything now, so "it
must be OK" |
<pinkerton> |
sabi: we went around and around for about
6 months with tons of designs and settled on one that didn't involve
the sidebar. |
<kerz_> |
pinkerton: is there
anything positive about the new ui? ;) |
<sabi> |
Aha... |
<pinkerton> |
kerz: skins! |
<sabi> |
I guess there's no nice way to do it on
multiple platforms that involves multiple windows. |
<thelem> |
Prefs is CTRL-E on windows,
don't know about macs |
<sabi> |
because of the curse of MDI |
<ncode_> |
will mozilla have a
news/stock ticker? |
<pinkerton> |
kerz: and hopefully it won't be as loaded
down with lame features, but more of a sleek and easy to use browser. |
|
ncode: unclear. the sidebar has potential
for such a thing |
<thelem> |
ncode: I am sure it
can be done in XUL |
<pinkerton> |
it could be done with xul for sure, and
if you don't like it, you could just remove it. |
<myk> |
pink: the first thing
i do when i start up mozilla is minimize the sidebar |
<pinkerton> |
our new architecture really makes it easy
to just delte all the extra shit you don't want. |
|
myk: haha, and maybe soon it will remember
that pref again ;) |
<myk> |
i hope so! |
<pinkerton> |
myk: that broke and no one fixed it. |
<thelem> |
yeah, that sidebar is
really annoying if you use alot of windows :-) |
<pinkerton> |
we joke it's a netcenter requirement that
the feature not work ;) |
<myk> |
oh yeah, my latest build
i can only minimize it so far |
<Ben_Goodger> |
pink: do you think the placement of the
sidebar might be a part of the problem? |
<sabi> |
Well at least mozilla
doesn't pause for QUITE as long as 4.x did when you tried to collapse
a toolbar |
<pinkerton> |
or that it crash if you try to close it
;) soon enough, people will stop trying to close it ;) |
|
ben: no. |
<Ben_Goodger> |
heh |
<chrisn> |
pinkerton: I seem to recall that Mozilla
has problems with MacOS8 (or is it 7.5?) What was the problem, and
why couldn't it be addressed in the code? |
<pinkerton> |
sabi: true. our new
layout engine rocks for that kind of stuff! |
|
we require 8.5 |
|
it could be addressed,
if we had the time. |
|
but we don't. |
<chrisn> |
what was the issue? |
<pinkerton> |
anyone on the net who
wants to help????? |
<sabi> |
apple says they're moving a few of the
8.5 apis back to 8.1 for use with carbonlib, that might help. |
<pinkerton> |
we're using some os85
specific things in a few places. |
<sabi> |
though probably not completely |
<FrodoB> |
I know that you'd said
something on the newsgroups way back when about Apple porting libraries
to 8.1 that would make it possible to support that version, at least....
Did that fall through? |
<pinkerton> |
sabi: a few, but not enough to make it
helpful....and then we'd have to rely on carbon, which still isn't
soup yet. scheduling nightmare. |
|
we want to rely on carbon to get us back
to 8.1, but it probably won't happen for 5.0. just the timeframes
don't fit well together. |
<sabi> |
was thinking post-release,
anyway. |
<pinkerton> |
yeah |
|
that's a goal. we want to get on carbon
for daily builds and stay there, but it's a moving target right
now. |
<ncode_> |
will mozilla have sounds? |
<pinkerton> |
ncode: yes. |
|
ncode: works on win/linux now, we just
haven't done it on mac yet |
|
next question? |
<ncode_> |
throbber sound? |
<pinkerton> |
ncode: if you want ;) |
<thelem> |
ncode: y do you keep
asking all these minor questions? |
* pinkerton |
shrugs |
<sabi> |
that could be almost
as annoying as the sound when you move a window in 8.5+ |
<pinkerton> |
sabi: haha |
|
any other questions? |
|
deep or shallow? ;) |
<ncode_> |
im not a programmer |
<chrisn> |
heh |
<pinkerton> |
or anything i didn't
answer fully? |
<kerz_> |
pinkerton: do you like the new ui? |
<FrodoB> |
Are you as ticked as
Simon Fraser was about the really unMaclike scrollbars? ;) |
<MattyT> |
pink: do you think XUL will make the operating
system into a commodity, hence precipating a move towards free operating
systems away from the Mac? <ducks> |
<thelem> |
Surely the scrollbars
come with the skin...? |
<pinkerton> |
kerz: the new ui has some nice things
and some really really lame things, like the personal toolbar being
8 pixels high to give the sidebar as much room as possible and the
disabled buttons being more visually distracing than the enabled
buttons. |
|
frodo: kinda. |
<sabi> |
the disabled buttons
look like they're underwater. |
<Ben_Goodger> |
MattyT: you could thikn about that another
way, it'd free windows people up and let them use Mac :) |
<pinkerton> |
matty: we thought that
about 2 years ago...remember NetCaster? ;) |
|
matty: that obviously
didn't happen |
<kerz_> |
oy vey |
<pinkerton> |
matty: we're not (i'm
not) trying to replace the os, just help people write better apps |
<MattyT> |
heh, I never bothered with that as it
took way too long |
<chrisn> |
I never expected to
hear that name again |
<kerz> |
Will netcaster be in 5.0? |
<thelem> |
do scrollbars come with
the skin? |
<chrisn> |
:) |
<pinkerton> |
yeah, we had this great
"netscape platform" thing going and then realized that no one really
wanted it. |
<kerz> |
or constellation |
<pinkerton> |
right |
|
kerz: shut up ;) |
<kerz> |
aww |
<Ben_Goodger> |
pink: is it true you
program in a tuxedo? |
<pinkerton> |
thelem: yes, you can skin scrollbars to
do whatever you want. |
<Ben_Goodger> |
;) |
<pinkerton> |
ben: i program in a speedo. |
<Ben_Goodger> |
oh god no *shields eyes* |
<MattyT> |
i program in a suit |
|
a birthday suit |
<pinkerton> |
anything else? |
* FrodoB |
was actually looking forward to Constellation.
:) |
<chrisn> |
ok, folks. thanks for
stopping by! |
<pinkerton> |
nice chatting with everyone. |
<chrisn> |
and thanks to Mike Pinkerton
for showing up |
<ncode_> |
will the js and java engine be improved? |
<Ben_Goodger> |
bye, thanks pink :D |
<MattyT> |
thanks mike |
<sabi> |
thanks... and i'll check
out drag & drop. |
<pinkerton> |
feel free to mail me with quetions or
get us on the newsgroups mozilla.mac and the like |
<thelem> |
thanks. Bye |
<kerz> |
ncode_: no |
<myk> |
thanks mike |
<pinkerton> |
thanks to everyone who showed up |