<nisheeth> |
so, how about each of
you typing in a line about yourself and how you got involved with
mozilla... |
<chrisn> |
My name is chris nelson, and I run mozillaZine |
<kerz> |
ok |
<nisheeth> |
I'm nisheeth, and I work on XML and layout
in the Gecko team. |
<kerz> |
My name is Jason Kersey,
and I am the other mozillaZine admin. |
<Aspirin> |
I'm adam, a Random Web Developer. |
<Tekhir> |
I'm Jeremy, I'm also
a web developer |
<``es_> |
i'm eric, i'm just an end user who will
one day learn c/c++ and maybe work on mozilla |
<MattyT> |
My name is Matthew,
and my job is to annoy Netscape developers with lots of RFEs in
Bugzilla that'll never get implemented. |
<Brian> |
I'm Brian, I'm working on a piece of software
that will be using the Gecko engine to display XML documents |
<vidur> |
I'm Vidur. I work on
the DOM and am Netscape's representative to the W3C DOM Working
Group. I did the initial implementation of XML+CSS in Gecko. |
<CGI-BINux> |
I'm a former professional CGI programmer,
and netscape/mozilla junkie |
<jer> |
I'm Jeremie, jabber
dude and working on a mozilla jabber client |
<X-ViRGE> |
I'm Julian, a high school student who
is a web designer/web programmer... I've been following netscape
since 1.22, so Mozilla was obviously the next step. :) |
<Brian> |
I'll only be drifting
in and out of this chat, but I'm logging it as a backup for others
too |
<endico> |
i'm Dawn Endico, a mozilla.org toolmeister.
(e.g. lxr, bugzilla, newsbot) |
<X-ViRGE> |
(I'm also an active
member of the WSP, trying to help out with Jabber's XML DTDs, and
helping out with GNOME, which may use mozilla in version 2's help
system) |
<chrisn> |
well, why don't we get started? |
<``es_> |
also... i'm a freshman
in college majoring in computer science, and do odd admin stuff
for betanews.com and php scripting too. (ok that was 2 lines) |
<nisheeth> |
sure, chrisn, please moderate this from
here on... |
<chrisn> |
nisheeth: ok, we were
gonna try without moderation, but that's probably a good idea... |
|
send your questions
my way - /msg chrisn |
<zinebot> |
SeaMonkey: 'wensleydale SunOS/sparc 5.6
Depend' has changed state from Success to Horked |
<chrisn> |
if I get dropped, /msg
kerz or one of the other ops |
|
except zinebot |
|
<X-ViRGE> Are
you seriously planning on implementing XSL into Mozilla, or will
that have to wait for next release? (Yes, I realize it isn't a Recommendation
yet.) |
<vidur> |
chrisn: nisheeth's going to answer this
one, but i'd vote for trying this without moderation. |
<smoke> |
hello |
<nisheeth> |
The current plan is to *try* to ship hooks
that load up an external XSL engine from within Mozilla. |
<chrisn> |
nisheeth: will we see
this by beta? or later? |
<nisheeth> |
The intention is to let people who want
to use XSL do so by downloading a separate XSL processor |
<MattyT> |
Are these hooks specifically
for XSL or any stylesheet/transformation engine? |
<zinebot> |
SeaMonkey: 'shrike Linux Depend' has changed
state from Success to Horked |
<vidur> |
The hooks are meant
to be generic: DOM tree->DOM tree through any transformation. |
<nisheeth> |
At this stage, given that XSL is relatively
low priority, I would say that the hooks will probably be operational
post-beta |
|
The hooks are in there, but, I ran into
bugs trying to use them with the XSL processor that Keith Visco
has contributed to Mozilla |
<Asa> |
where in the code would
someone go to see/be a part of these hooks? |
<nisheeth> |
Take a look at mozilla/extensions/transformiix |
|
It contains the XSL processor contributed
by Keith. |
<chrisn> |
let me clear out the
questions in my queue: |
|
<simeon> What
are the issues with having expat do dtd validation as well as well-formedness
checking? |
<vidur> |
simeon: We're using James Clark's expat
without any major modifications. James doesn't plan to do any validation
till the W3C Schema work is done. |
<X-ViRGE> |
Ah, so will expat have
DTD validation, or only XML Schema validation? |
<nisheeth> |
asa: the XSL processor registers as an
implementor of the nsIDocumentTransformer interface |
<vidur> |
X-ViRGE: Good question.
My guess is that James Clark will only do XML Schema validation
given his distaste for DTDs. :-) That doesn't preclude us from looking
at other open-source XML parsers. |
<nisheeth> |
asa: The hooks dynamically look up the
implementor and call it via the interface to transform a document |
<vidur> |
The IBM Alphaworks one,
for example. |
<chrisn> |
would one of you like to explain the difference
between DTDs and schemas, for the uninitiated? |
<nisheeth> |
vidur is going for this
one.. |
<vidur> |
The XML DTD syntax is a subset of the
SGML DTD syntax. Schemas are planned as an alternate validation
scheme. They will have an XML syntax and will introduce new notions
such as data types. |
<chrisn> |
ok: not an XML question,
but the last in my queue, and you can apply it to your XML work: |
|
<mwh> What do
you think the status of Mozilla is in 8 months? Im returning from
the Military at that point hehe |
* X-ViRGE |
thinks it should also be noted that the
syntax for DTDs is quite different from the XML syntax, whereas
XML Schemas will be valid/well-formed XML |
<vidur> |
mwh: Hopefully much
closer to shipping, eh? |
<MattyT> |
So do you need a schema to define the
schema? |
<vidur> |
MattyT: Actually, yes.
Or a DTD. :-) |
<mwh> |
vidur: :) |
<chrisn> |
heh |
<X-ViRGE> |
yep :) |
<MattyT> |
I guess somewhere something
is its own schema |
<chrisn> |
I am my own schema |
|
ok, so - next question? |
<zinebot> |
SeaMonkey: 'Mac Opt
Clbr' has changed state from Success to Horked |
<Brian> |
Will Mozilla support Xlinks? |
<X-ViRGE> |
How do you see XML's
future? Is it going to become incredibly popular in web site design,
or do you see it as being used mostly outside of web site design
with HTML still being used for web sites? |
<Brian> |
I know currently there is some support
for simple XLinks |
<vidur> |
X-ViRGE: I don't think
it's an either-or question. A large part of it depends on cross-browser
support... |
|
X-ViRGE: I don't think
the XML purist view of a non-HTML world will ever exist. |
<X-ViRGE> |
"XML purist," I like that term :) |
<Brian> |
There is more of them
by the day! |
<vidur> |
I believe that XML will be used extensively
for sites, both on the client and server side. |
<nisheeth> |
Brian: We'll probably
support a subset of the XLinks spec for the first release: simple
links, not much more |
<simeon> |
what's your take on xhtml? hype? wave
of the future? |
<Brian> |
nisheeth: where in the
code is the best place to go if I wanted to look into extending
the XLink interface? |
<vidur> |
simeon: The XHTML1.0 spec is a bit of
a no-op. It formalizes some of the stuff that both us and IE already
did for inclusion of HTML in XML. |
|
simeon: The XHTML WG is, I believe, going
to start dividing XHTML into modules - tables, forms, etc. - and
then working on each separately. |
<MattyT> |
I'm a bit disappointed
that XHTML 1 is just going to be HTML 4.01, I guess that means there'll
still be presentational stuff like <B>. |
<nisheeth> |
from what I remember, right now link checking
happens in the SetAttribute() method in nsXMLContentSink.cpp |
<vidur> |
MattyT: Yeah, the XHTML
1 scope is pretty limited. The next steps should be more interesting. |
<Brian> |
Ok thanks |
<nisheeth> |
brian: which is located
in mozilla/layout/xml/document/src |
<chrisn> |
do you know anything about any SVG work
being done for Moz at the moment? I know that there was some indication
of that a long time ago... |
<MattyT> |
Are they going to nuke
the presentational stuff? I saw some rumblings that XHTML future
versions might not be backward compatible. |
<Brian> |
Chris: I know Jeremy Lea started an SVG
for Mozilla project but shelved it due to re-location |
<vidur> |
chrisn: I don't believe
there's any work on SVG for Mozilla being done in the open, as far
as I know. |
<MattyT> |
There was a guy who asked a question on
a newsgroup the other day, I didn't get around to replying. |
<vidur> |
"being done in the open"
being the operating phrase in that sentence. |
<MattyT> |
are we meant to read something into that
sentence? =) |
<chrisn> |
vidur: are you aware
of any being done behind closed doors? someone at a company mention
that they're working on it? |
<vidur> |
MattyT: I believe they will nuke the presentational
stuff that doesn't have a CSS equivalent (<B> and the rest
are deprecated in HTML 4.0) |
<MattyT> |
good riddance =) |
<kerz> |
SVG, is that the vector graphics thing? |
<chrisn> |
I'd imagine that Macromedia
is working on something... |
<MattyT> |
yeah but the question is whether its in
moz |
<chrisn> |
yeah |
|
kerz: yes |
|
vidur, nisheeth: how
do you feel about the current Mozilla implementation? pleased? any
regrets? |
<simeon> |
ibm has a svg viewer...maybe it could
be plugged in? |
<X-ViRGE> |
I know that you just
said that Mozilla will only support a subset of the XLink recommendation,
but I was wondering what your ideas were as to how you would present
out-of-line extended links? (I've always wondered how different
browsers will present this) |
<vidur> |
I'd bet that companies on the SVG WG are
working on implementations. If they are planning to integrate with
Moz...I haven't seen anything announced. |
<zinebot> |
SeaMonkey: 'shrike Linux
Clobber' has changed state from Success to Horked |
<MattyT> |
announcement comes sometime after intention
and back-room discussions of course =0 |
<vidur> |
X-ViRGE: Yeah, the spec
is deliberately vague about presentational issues. |
<nisheeth> |
chrisn: Are you talking about XML specifically
or the browser as a whole? |
<chrisn> |
nisheeth: XML, and its
integration and presentation capabilities... |
<Brian> |
X-ViRGE: yes, and the whole area of 'behaviour'
of XLinks has any number of possibilities |
<vidur> |
X-ViRGE: I haven't thought
about it in great detail, to tell you the truth. Our simple link
support went in with an earlier version of the XLink spec and we
were told at that time that extended links were still subject to
substantialy change. |
<nisheeth> |
chrisn: just got a call, hang on |
<vidur> |
chrisn: I'll take the
question... |
<MattyT> |
can you explain xlinks/xpointer. I've
heard that you don't necessarily need an anchor (which i presume
would be an id in XML) is that true? |
<vidur> |
chrisn: I actually think
that our approach to XML (i.e. pushing XML+CSS at this point rather
than focusing on XSL) is the right first step. |
|
chrisn: I think transformations
are necessary, but a complete, correct layout engine is our first
goal. |
<mwh> |
Is there a QT version of Mozilla? If so
is it as updated as it can be compared to GTK+? |
<MattyT> |
I think I heard someone
had picked it up. |
<Brian> |
XLinks can be multidirectional, as opposed
to an HTML <a href... |
<Asa> |
nishteeth: vidur: Q:
what needs to be done to complete/extend mozilla's implimentation
of XML? What's on your plates now? What will you be working on in
2 months? What will you need the most help with? |
<Brian> |
Can point to any number of resources... |
|
with different sets of behaviours |
<vidur> |
vidur: on my plate is
getting a bit more of DOM Level 2 complete. I believe we have a
complete Level 1 implementation (modulo bugs). |
|
s/vidur/Asa |
<MattyT> |
talking to yourself again? |
<vidur> |
Story of my life... |
<simeon> |
thanks vidur and nisheeth! |
<MattyT> |
so how would you click
on a link that goes to multiple places? I was more interested in
how you would define the targets within a URL. |
<X-ViRGE> |
MattyT: that's what they were talking
about when they said that it is vague |
|
MattyT: there are a lot of ways you could
do it |
<MattyT> |
marvellous |
<vidur> |
Asa: I think we definitely need help getting
together a complete DOM Level 1 (and eventually Level 2) test suite.
David Baron and others have their own and they've been helpful so
far. |
<mwh> |
heh now I realize its
about XML ;) oh my |
<nisheeth> |
asa: I'm working on bugs in the current
implementation and have layout stuff to do for the immediate future |
<X-ViRGE> |
and, to go further,
you can have an extended link (a link which goes multiple places)
be out of line (not actually appear in the document, like <a
href="blah">blah</a> would show blah being the link) |
<vidur> |
MattyT: The one-to-many case is easy.
A pop-up menu for instance. |
<MattyT> |
Is part of the simple
XLink support? |
|
is that a part ... |
<X-ViRGE> |
I know that MSIE5 just generates a list
of all links in a document if you pull up a certain window, but
I'd prefer pop-up menus |
|
not the simple, no :) |
|
(hence "extended") |
<nisheeth> |
asa: I could use help
with getting as much of Xlink implemented as possible and integrating
the XSL processor. |
<chrisn> |
nisheeth, vidur: have either of you been
following the MathML progress? what are your opinions of it? has
it helped bring to the surface any weaknesses of Moz's XML? |
<vidur> |
X-ViRGE: Do you know
if the MSIE5 work is based on the current XLink Working Draft? |
<Brian> |
I like the fact that all linking information
can be kept externally, remotely even |
<X-ViRGE> |
vidur: no, I do not.
I only played with XML in IE5 for a little bit. I do know that they
implement a really old version of XSL as part of the standard browser
package, though |
|
so I wouldn't be surprised
if their XLink is very out-of-date, too |
<vidur> |
chrisn: I think it's stressed out our
layout engine, more than our XML support. Though, it shows that
we need to be a lot more pluggable. |
<chrisn> |
X-ViRGE: which people
are probably creating intranets with. sheesh... |
<MattyT> |
i wonder if that version is going to become
their standard xsl implementation now |
<X-ViRGE> |
chrisn: yep |
<MattyT> |
do you know if netscape plans to cut out
all not finalised standard support from NN5? |
<X-ViRGE> |
chrisn: and the question
is, what will they do when XSL becomes a Recommendation? Even the
current Working Draft is COMPLETELY different from their implementation |
<vidur> |
chrisn: The MathML support should be something
we can just drop in. That's not the case right now. |
<jer> |
vidur: on the DOM test
suite, I started one till I realized how much time it would involve...
I wish I had the time, it would be VERY useful |
<nisheeth> |
We also need to be able to load up an
XML document from JS and manipulate it via DOM interfaces. |
<vidur> |
A way to invoke the
XML parser from script, essentially. |
<jer> |
nisheeth: on that topic, is there any
way to access the raw expat functionality from JS, XPCOM mabye? |
<chrisn> |
vidur: so, pluggable
XML implementations is something you plan for the future? If so,
do you have a timeframe? Moz releaes 2? |
<X-ViRGE> |
How far along is Mozilla's CSS2 support?
(If anyone knows) |
<vidur> |
MattyT: Good question.
I think we're fine with the DOM 1/2, CSS 1/2, XML 1.0, namespaces.
XLink is the one thing I'm not sure about. |
<chrisn> |
X-ViRGE: months ago, angus davis had it
at about 80% |
<MattyT> |
I know it's not finished
=) |
<vidur> |
jer: That's what I meant. We need to do
it. Probably post-beta1. |
<MattyT> |
for example, I believe
there is CSS 3 code |
<chrisn> |
MattyT: I think their plans are to have
the partial implementations at least working properly... |
<Brian> |
I'd say it's alot less
than 80% |
<X-ViRGE> |
chrisn: that's very good to know. I was
messing around with XML & CSS2 and ran into a bunch of bugs,
but they were all fixed before I could narrow them down to specific
cases |
<zinebot> |
Just appeared in Slashdot:News
for Nerds. Stuff that Matters. (http://slashdot.org/index.pl?section=):
Eric S. Raymond Answers |
<vidur> |
chrisn: Probably Moz release 2, though
I'm going to push for it for release 1. |
<Asa> |
vidur: nishteeth: are
tehre particular areas of test cases that would aid development
(both XML layout, XSL and DOM levels 1 and 2) |
<MattyT> |
Yeah, I don't mind the support appearing
in Milestones, but I think any public moz/nn release should have
absolutely no support for things that aren't standards yet |
<chrisn> |
vidur: at that point,
would the MathML implementation have to be rewritten to work with
the new scheme? |
<zinebot> |
Just appeared in MozillaZine (http://www.mozillazine.org/):
Reminder: Dev Chat with Nisheeth Ranjan going on Right Now! |
|
Just appeared in XPToolkit (http://www.mozilla.org/xpfe/):
New splitter docs online ... Visual debugging box docs online ...
Big changes to how xul.css is included ... Movie page updated |
<nisheeth> |
jer: not currently.
Brad Neuberg has contributed SAX interfaces already. We now need
to wrap up expat within those interfaces... |
<zinebot> |
SeaMonkey: 'shrike Linux Depend' has changed
state from Horked to Success |
|
SeaMonkey: 'wensleydale SunOS/sparc 5.6
Depend' has changed state from Horked to Success |
<vidur> |
MattyT: I believe some
aspects of CSS3 may be included and used for XUL - out of necessity.
I would hope we don't publicize them for use with HTML and XML. |
<nisheeth> |
jer: Brad is looking for C++ help with
doing that. Once that is done, expat needs to be made an XPCOM component. |
<jer> |
nisheeth: SAX would
be great, as long as it can take the input in a chunk'd way (for
handling streams) similiar to expat :) |
<MattyT> |
Maybe, but they should be for XUL only
and preferably renamed to moz-*. |
|
(if possible) |
<CGI-BINux> |
Are there any good URLs
for XML & DOM Testing & maybe a reference or two of DOM..
|
<vidur> |
chrisn: Possibly modified a bit. Hopefully
not too much. They have a small number of hooks in layout. The bigger
deal is that they inherit from currently non-public classes. |
<jer> |
nisheeth: tnx, great! |
<vidur> |
MattyT: Definitely something to consider
on a case-by-case basis. Some parts of CSS3 and more stable than
others. |
<nisheeth> |
jer: Yes, sax defines
two types of interfaces. One is event driven similar to expat. One
parses the XML document into a DOM tree. |
<MattyT> |
chrisn: does ths stuffed Mozilla picture
on the chat reminder article means everyone in this chat gets a
stuffed Mozilla? =) |
<vidur> |
CGI-BINux: David Baron's
tests are at http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~dbaron/dom/test/. jer,
is your initial work still around? |
<MattyT> |
so, how do classes and ids work in XML
and the XML DOM? i've gathered they're different |
<vidur> |
MattyT: Yeah, attributes
can be specified in a DTD to be of type ID. The attribute "ID" itself
has no special significance... |
<Brian> |
CGI-BINux: There is now also a built in
DOM viewer, courtesy of Alec Flett |
<X-ViRGE> |
erm, with XML you can
make your own elements and attributes, why bother with classes and
ids? |
|
:) |
<jer> |
vidur: yes: http://jeremie.com/Dev/DOM/html1/
but it looks like I horqed the mysql db, I'll go fix it... |
<Brian> |
X-Virge: for styling
mostly |
<MattyT> |
Just wondering, because I've heard about
there being no GetElementByID or whatever, and wondering how it
works ... |
<vidur> |
MattyT: Nor does CLASS.
CSS is vague about whether rules should be applied to XML elements
with attributes of type "ID". |
<X-ViRGE> |
Brian: yeah, but then you might as well
just make up your own attributes :) |
<vidur> |
X-VirGE: ID rules are
still useful for specific elements. |
<nisheeth> |
asa: Any help that we can get with testing
XML Layout and DOM levels 1 and 2 are appreciated. Testing XSL right
now would be a lower priority |
<MattyT> |
so how is it done in
moz at the moment, it strikes me that without ids and classes, XML+CSS
would be nearly useless ... |
<vidur> |
MattyT: Not true, as X-VirGE mentioned,
you can use element selectors to define style for different elements. |
<Brian> |
nisheeth: I'm on the
case every day |
<X-ViRGE> |
vidur: yes, I do realize that much, but
I'm not calling an attribute of mine "class" unless it makes sense
to do so :) I'll probably almost always make an 'id' attribute |
<chrisn2> |
vidur, nisheeth: is
there some indication of where work could start on an XML/DOM test
suite? |
<MattyT> |
ok, a little bulb is appearing over my
head |
<X-ViRGE> |
MattyT: you can select
specific elements with specific attributes in CSS, and since you
can create your own attributes and elements in XML, that works quite
well |
<nisheeth> |
asa: There are test suites available for
DOM testing but none that I'm aware of for XML+CSS testing. A test
suite for XML+CSS would help us a lot. |
<X-ViRGE> |
nisheeth: really? |
<vidur> |
X-ViRGE: I agree, though I've heard rumblings
from CSS-heads about the usefulness of CLASS even in XML. I don't
buy it. |
<nisheeth> |
asa: I need to work
with our QA team to publicize our internal XML+CSS test cases. |
<X-ViRGE> |
nisheeth: I've been playing around with
XML + CSS right here, but I figured you guys didn't really need
XML + CSS tests and assumed that someone else had already made some
:) |
<MattyT> |
vidur: nisneeth: so,
how has your new found fame and fortune affected you? |
<Asa> |
nishteeth: are there any XML+CCS tests
checked in? |
<vidur> |
X-ViRGE: Our XML+CSS
and XML DOM support hasn't been stressed in any way. |
<MattyT> |
X-ViRGE: yep, that makes sense |
<X-ViRGE> |
vidur: well, then, do
you think I should get to work and actually contribute something?
:) |
<Brian> |
X-ViRGE: Post them if you can. Extra knowledge
is always accepted at Mozilla |
<vidur> |
MattyT: "fame and fortune"?
Hah! I must have missed that boat. |
<nisheeth> |
X-Virge: :) Please, pretty please. |
<X-ViRGE> |
ok then :) |
<MattyT> |
X-ViRGE: you _always_ need more tests |
<X-ViRGE> |
http://www.delanet.com/~jkmissig/xmltests/ |
|
I'll put them there |
<Brian> |
Post them on the relevant newsgroups X-ViRGE |
<X-ViRGE> |
Brian: I'll do that,
too :) |
<Brian> |
Good stuff X |
<chrisn2> |
ok, folks thanks for
coming, and thanks to nisheeth and vidur for stopping by and chatting! |
<MattyT> |
thanks nisheeth and vidur |
<chrisn2> |
we'll have a log of
the full chat up shortly at mozillazine |
<Asa> |
thanks nisheeth and vidur. |
<X-ViRGE> |
thanks guys |
<Brian> |
Yes, thanks nisheeth and vidur and all |
<vidur> |
Thanks all. Hope it's
been useful. |
<Brian> |
Thanks Chris for organising it |
<MattyT> |
chrisn: are these going
to be a regular event? |
<nisheeth> |
you're most welcome, guys. |
|
Thank you for coming |
<vidur> |
Feel free to send us
mail if you have any follow-up questions. |